Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help.
It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread
for ongoing cleanup projects.
NubianSatyress
Since: Mar, 2016
2020-11-18 16:12:22
In short, I think that there's quite a few examples that need to be cut outright. However, the valid ones still need massive trimming and probably merging as well, since there's a lot of redundant or overlapping examples.
- The cut and choose example seems fine.
- The post-apocalyptic example seems fine for the most part, but maybe too wordy . The two bullets need to be merged as well.
- Eugenics example seems fine, as that IS the primary problem with Eugenics.
- Conspiracy theorist example also seems fine.
- Libertarian examples break ROCEJ and should be cut. By extension, the other political examples as well.
- The "Historical Time Period" example seems fine. Its bullets need to go, though.
- The Indian and Chinese abortion example seems like a valid example, but might break ROCEJ.
- "You can't make an omelette" seems valid.
- The Ayn Rand example seems like she and her followers discussed the trope, so I think it can stay.
- The "every politician"/"family values" example needs to go for ROCEJ.
- John Steinbeck quote seems to discuss the trope, so I'm okay with it staying.
- Communist examples need to go per ROCEJ.
- Not In My Back Yard example seems fine.
- Troll example seems valid, not sure about ROCEJ though.
- Tolerance example, ditto. Seems valid, but not sure about ROCEJ.
- Brutally honest Jerkass with a Point example seems valid. But if it stays, the bullet points need to be merged, the wording needs to be trimmed, and the Dave Chappelle point needs to be front and center, since it's another example of the trope being discussed.
- TERF example needs to go for ROCEJ. Hate them, but don't want to break the rules.
- Ditto the Islamic State and Alt-Right example. I think the examples are valid, but probably valid but ROCEJ might be an issue.
- Violence/social darwinist example seems valid. Could probably be merged into another example, though, as it seems redundant.
- I have no idea what the Nelson Mandela/Terrorist example is talking about.
- The "swift punishment vs gradual punishment" example needs to be cut for ROCEJ.
- Freidrich Spee example needs to be cut. The last line even states that it might not even be real.
- Slavery example seems valid; in this case, I think ROCEJ doesn't apply because pretty much any sane person would recognize slavery as bad.
- COVID-19 example may be too topical and break ROCEJ.
- Voting example seems valid, but....well, you get the idea.
In short, I think that there's quite a few examples that need to be cut outright. However, the valid ones still need massive trimming and probably merging as well, since there's a lot of redundant or overlapping examples.

From Original Position Fallacy, It seem nearly all of the examples violate Examples Are Not General. And seem accusative/contentious.
- This is what's behind the "cut and choose" method of sharing treats. Typically, when two children are sharing a cookie or cupcake or something like that, one child divides the treat into two portions, but the other child gets to pick which portion he/she wants, making it wise for the first child to cut it as evenly as possible.
- The kinds of people who think living in a post-apocalyptic world would be "cool" tend to use this fallacy. They assume that, in a world with no law, order, or government, they could do whatever they want and would thrive. But they fail to realize that the whole "do whatever you want" thing wouldn't just apply to themselves, it would apply to everyone else. Many think that "raiding a store" would be sufficient enough to let them live comfortably, ignoring that pretty much everyone else would be trying to raid the stores too — and without farms or other agricultural infrastructure, sooner or later the stores will just run out. If you want to survive at all, you're pretty much forced to go back to subsistence farming and premodern standards of living. Have fun!
- This also presumes that they will survive to be part of the post-apocalypse in the first place. Every doomsday-prepper presumes they won't get killed during a nuclear war, a Zombie Apocalypse, a meteor shower, an alien or demonic invasion... etc. Those who yearn for the Rapture also assume that they will be one of those taken to Heaven (especially if their confession mentions having limited seats). Many disaster movies don't clearly portray what you can comfortably presume are >90% human casualties.
- Eugenics proponents generally assume that the populations which have favorable genes are theirs and the populations which need to die off are not their own (nor anyone they know). Similarly, those who prophesy a Malthusian catastrophe unless the human population level drops (through war, pandemic, or the like) tend to assume that "those other people" will be the ones to kick off and leave room for everyone else.
- For a variant, conspiracy theorists tend to think like this, but in the present tense. They assume that whatever chemical has been fed into the water supply, or whatever radio waves are dumbing down the populace, that they are somehow immune and therefore able to perceive the truth, and are not one of the "sheeple" that they so deride.
- Kevin Drum once wrote on his belief that hardcore libertarianism is built on this trope.
Drum: It's a fantasy where the strongest and most self-reliant folks end up at the top of the heap, and a fair number of men share the fantasy that they are these folks. They believe they've been held back by rules and regulations designed to help the weak, and in a libertarian culture their talents would be obvious and they'd naturally rise to positions of power and influence.
Most of them are wrong, of course. In a truly libertarian culture, nearly all of them would be squashed like ants — mostly by the same people who are squashing them now. But the fantasy lives on regardless.Thoughts? Any worth keeping?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught