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I feel a little more concerned now that I checked Rasmus Sabel's history
. He has few edits, but all of them have some glaring grammar mistakes (absence of apostrophes, lower-case letters at the beginning of sentences). And his first edit in a year was solely meant to insult another troper...
It doesn't look like anyone's "right" in this scenario IMHO. Rasmus is importing drama without actually contributing, Revan is edit warring (though he might have a point about the trope's weird standards if things like the MCU are considered "saccharine"), and rva98104's been weirdly controlling over certain pages (see: his edits for WesternAnimation.Beauty And The Beast where literally every example added by someone else is reworded by him in some way [surely they can't all be bad enough to reword, can they?])
Edited by N8han11I've been saying for years that there is an obvious missing trope for "villain who is significantly darker than the rest of the work", which Vile Villain, Saccharine Show and Knight of Cerebus would be subtropes to. I think that would address a lot of this stuff more than taking the former trope to TRS would.
But taking the former trope to TRS could allow it to be expanded.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Thank you TantaMonty for letting me know this thread has been started.
After I saw that RevanBane had added back the Vile Villain, Saccharine Show trope I immediately opened a discussion item for it, added my detailed thoughts on why I felt it wasn't a good example of the trope and sent them a PM inviting them to participate. That was back on Nov 6th and I've not heard anything from them.
After RasmusSabel added their comment, I PM'd them with "I've opened a discussion on this trope over at the Incredibles character page. I tried to explain, in more detail, my thoughts about why I don't think it fits. If you'd like to do more than just snark in the dark at me personally, come on over and participate.. "
RasmusSabel replied: "okay will do but if you think you have the monopoly on editing a page you cant avoid that people will call you out on it"
I replied back explaining that don't feel I have a monopoly on the page, that I always try to leave a good edit reason for my changes (especially deletes), that I've participated in many discussions where I've had my edits challenged. I then invited them to provide specific examples that they feel illustrate my "monopoly".
To date RasmusSabel has not participated in the open discussion nor have they PM'd back with specific examples of my "monopoly".
As far as my "controlling" appearance, I apologize if it comes across that way. I've been active on tvtropes for over 4 years. Since COVID 19 caused a down turn in the economy, I currently have more free time on my hands and have been passing that time here and other sites.
One of my interests is freelance editing so I enjoy reviewing examples and seeing if they can be improved: ie can the wording be tightened up, can a verbose example be trimmed down, where spoiler tags are used can it be phrased in a way that spoiler tags aren't needed, etc. My current run through Beauty and the Beast is just that... a cleanup to help pass the time. But, despite what N8han11 has said, I have not reworded literally every example.
Edited by rva98014For the sake of clarity, I'm including the details I put into the discussion about Vile Villain, Saccharine Show and why I don't feel it is an appropriate trope for this movie...
The definition is "this trope is about villains in normally lighthearted fiction that are so disturbing, so terrifying, that they clash harshly with the tone of the work."
There's no absolutely no disagreement that Syndrome is a vile villain. He already has plenty of tropes in his section on the Incredibles character page supporting that role: Ax-Crazy, From Nobody to Nightmare, Lack of Empathy, Psychopathic Manchild, Sadist, Serial Killer, The Sociopath, etc.
At issue is whether him being a villain contrasts sharply with the tone of the work and the world of the Incredibles.
I contend that he does not. This is a world of superheros and supervillains where villains like Bomb Voyage have no problem putting a child's life in danger for a chance to escape.
It's a world where insurance companies are quite eager to not pay their clients. A world where lawsuits drove the supers into hiding.
A world where Bob is so busy focusing on his glory days that he's been ignoring his family for a while.
It's world where henchman will try to kill children and they themselves are out and out KILLED. Dash, a 9-year old boy, is directly responsible for the deaths of at least 7 henchmen.
The world of the Incredibles is not a dystopia but it's not a Sugar Bowl either. It's a superhero world where a villain like Syndrome fits right in.
And that's why I contend that the trope does not apply to this movie or this character and should be removed.
Edited by rva98014Adding my two cents: Syndrome is presented as completely unlike the bad guys Mr. Incredible and Elastigirl faced, and far more dangerous and able than the others. Part of the movie is about coming to grips with that, and the image of the superhero vs. the reality.
In the context of the movie, Syndrome is absolutely a way more disturbing threat than the Golden Age superheroes the protagonists used to face. It fits.
This isn't what Vile Villain, Saccharine Show is about. It's not enough to have a villain being more dangerous than the previous bad guys, there has to be a distinct Tone Shift that contrasts the villain's nastiness and the otherwise lighthearted setting.
Unless the previous bad guys the heroes face were completely harmless who can only Poke the Poodle (this is definitely not the case in The Incredibles), Syndrome doesn't qualify, even if he is more competent and, by virtue of having more technology to cause more harm, is therefore more dangerous than his predecessors.
I agree that Syndrome doesn't qualify for the Vile Villain, Saccharine Show, since he's far more dangerous than Bomb Voyage or the other villains the Incredibles faced. As such, it should be removed.
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.I support not adding Vile Villain, Saccharine Show, especially considering Brad Bird's own words on the movies.
Ask The Tropers is not the appropriate place to discuss this.
Could all of you please take the discussion of whether the trope applies to the show to a more appropriate place, such as the Is this an example?
thread or the Discussion page for The Incredibles characters page?
I think a major issue with this trope is that I don't think people get the difference between it and Knight of Cerebus. I feel as though many probably see them as the same thing which is "Villain more dangerous and darker than the rest of the work which classes with the tone of the work before hand". The only big difference is that one can be in a TV Series for any age group, where as Vile Villain, Saccharine Show is purely for something made for kids.
Either this trope needs to go on TRS or a supertrope needs to be made. That's the last thing I'll say before the thread gets locked and we go to the "Is this an example?" thread.

There seems to be a brewing conflict between 3 tropers in the The Incredibles page. Revan Bane added an example of Vile Villain, Saccharine Show to one of the folders, which rva98014 deleted because "the trope is about villains in normally lighthearted fiction that are so disturbing, so terrifying, that they clash harshly with the tone of the work. There's no doubt that Syndrome is a vile villain but his presence is in a world full of superheroes and supervillains, it's not Sugar Bowl".
A few days back, Revan re-added the trope
, presenting the argument that "when you consider that The Incredibles is a children's movie with a comedy twist, he still qualifies, as Syndrome is a mass murderer and is played completely seriously, which is rare for a Pixar movie. Also, we have several MCU villains in this trope, such as Quentin Beck, Ronan and Ego, even though the MCU has proven to be much darker than any Pixar movie."
Rasmus Sabel then made a blank edit, leaving the following message in the edit reason: "Revanbane you shouldnt bother adding/readding any tropes. rva98104 thinks he owns the page and cant accept that others are allowed to edit it so he'll always delete everything other people add".
No idea how to handle this situation, but I'm posting this here because I genuinely believe that the trope is being misused. A major plot point in the film is the superhero community being slaughtered en masse, so classifying the work as "saccharine" seems inadequate. Adding to that, writer/director Brad Bird has plainly stated that The Incredibles and its sequel are not "kids" movies
, so Revan's counter-argument is rendered moot.
Edited by TantaMonty