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crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-11-05 06:55:07

Previous thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=91548&type=att#comment-91548

Should've put that in as an edit reason when you did that, but they're still at fault because they deleted the warning.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Ctrooper2018 Since: Jul, 2020
2020-11-05 07:35:07

Okay, let me say this.

  • The point of "ambiguous" is it's unknown, so treating it as confirmed until otherwise makes no sense logically. Besides, Yamato's official introduction has an info-box which specifically calls her Kaido's daughter, so calling her male means rejecting official information! Case-in-point, I heavily disagree with calling Kikunojo a female just because he's "a woman at heart" and I will still personally call him as such, but I won't go out of my way to change the pronouns on Tv Tropes nor the One Piece wiki because his disphoria is officially confirmed. Yamato doesn't have this on her, so for now, the wisest course of action is to say she is a run-of-the-mill Cloudcuckoolander.
  • Plus, Yamato says she chooses to be a man because she wants to emulate another person who happens to be a man. I even remember Youtube user Sawyer7mage say he worked with people who had gender disphoria and they said they identified as the opposite sex because they felt their personalities didn't match their sexes, not because they wanted to model themselves after other people who were the opposite sex! Calling Yamato transgender would be breaking official rules!

mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2020-11-05 07:57:21

"I heavily disagree with calling Kikunojo a female just because he's 'a woman at heart' and I will still personally call him as such, but I won't go out of my way to change the pronouns on Tv Tropes nor the One Piece wiki because his disphoria [sic] is officially confirmed."

Misgendering a canonically transgender character just because you feel like it...kind of makes the edit warring over another character's pronouns look worse.

Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-11-05 08:05:55

Question: Are gender neutral they/them pronouns acceptable or also a form of misgendering? If acceptable, would that be a valid compromise?

mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2020-11-05 08:06:37

The official wiki page seems to avoid pronouns altogether, so there's that.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-11-05 08:06:40

Using male pronouns for Yamato is conforming to how they are addressed In-Universe. The use of female gender in the info box is reason to mention the discrepancy in the character's description, but actual examples can conform to how the character is actually addressed. You haven't presented new information on Yamato. Do you have new information to present that would change the established facts?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
TheGreatEater Since: Jan, 2014
2020-11-05 08:21:50

@sgamer82 It's not misgendering. The Adjudicator from John Wick 3 was NB, and used they/them to talk about them. So using They/them, for someone gender neutral, NB (Enby), androgynous, or whatever classification of NB they want to use. Is totally fine.

@C Trooper 2018 ... dude. That's totally not okay to be transphobic in this day in age (especially over an Anime Character). Especially when talking about a character who "In-Universe", has peeps use Male Pronouns to them, uses Male Pronouns for themselves, and presents themselves as male. Deleting the warning, and changing things as was mentioned earlier, looks so much worse on you now.

Like seriously dude, respect the characters. Simply saying "I don't agree with Transgender being Trans" isn't a solid argument, that's an opinion fam, not facts.

mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2020-11-05 09:08:40

For real-life scenarios, using they/them for a trans person who doesn't use they/them can be seen as misgendering. However, when there's legitimate ambiguity for which pronouns a fictional character uses, "they/them" can sometimes suffice.

However, if the work uses "he/him" 90% of the time for a character presenting as male, then there shouldn't really be a fight over using "he/him" on the page.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-11-05 11:14:35

Agreed. My own view is that Yamato is less trans-man and more trans-Oden-who-is-also-a-man. Either way, though, still male. Add that to characters' use of male pronouns and it really seems pretty straightforward.

fishysaur Since: May, 2018
2020-11-05 11:16:29

So, in conclusion, Yamato must be referred with male pronouns until said otherwise In-Universe or by Word of God, good

Now we just need an admin who allows to change everything back

Edited by fishysaur There isn't an impossible dream, there are only people who give up
Berrenta MOD (Ten years in the joint)
2020-11-05 13:24:00

Suspending. Permission granted to revert.

gjjones Since: Jul, 2016
2020-11-05 14:20:57

Also, if there are no objections, I think we should also refer to Yamato as a he on all relevant subpages (for example, other character sheets, main story pages, and recap pages) unless otherwise confirmed In-Universe or by Oda himself.

Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-11-05 16:19:09

Oda did confirm female, that's why there's controversy to begin with. The description needs to mention this, and any trope entries that are about the introduction box would need to mention this discrepancy, but nowhere else.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
miraculous (Apprentice)
2020-11-05 16:28:31

Isnt it just one caption box that says that though. The rest of the time yamato is refereed to as male so it seems weird to contradict everything else. Iy could just have been a one time mistake by the author

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-11-05 19:23:47

It isn't likely to be a mistake, because he's drawn with a feminine appearance. AKA, he has prominent breasts and a slim figure.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-11-05 19:50:43

One thought I had is maybe Oda did it as a form of ass-covering. Like he can get away with "funny girl role plays as a man' but actually calling Yamato a man, and "Kaido's son" vs Kaido's daughter, would cause more uproar than even he could get away with.

That said, everyone In-Universe using male pronouns is every bit as much Oda confirming it as a single dialogue box, in my opinion. It's all him, both ways.

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