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RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2020-08-27 03:26:01

Use whatever the work uses. (I haven't read/watched it, so I have no direct evidence, just second-hand.)

From what you said, it would appear that Yamato is a woman disguised as a man (or something in that vein) so we would use female pronouns.

Elfkaiser Since: May, 2013
2020-08-27 05:37:51

The thing with Yamato is that she really comes off as a ultra delusional fangirl cosplayer rather than an actual transman.

  • The first main issue of contention is really her line of reasoning. Yamato ultimately wants to be like Oden to the point that she self-identifies as Oden. This is the main thing with the character. Since Oden was a man, Yamato reasons that she should therefore identify as a man. That line of reasoning is really faulty because going by this logic, if Oden was a woman then that would mean that Yamato would identify as a woman. It also really comes off as something really disingenuous when compared to what actual transgender persons say as their reasons for identifying as certain genders such as that "they're a [gender] at heart" and etc. Yamato's reasoning just doesn't line up with what's stated to be actual genuine transgender reasons.
  • The second main issue of contention is the introbox that identifies Yamato as Kaido's daughter. This is pretty much Word of God from Oda himself saying that this character is specifically a woman. If Oda intended for Yamato to be a transman then he wouldn't have written daughter. It could be argued that Oda is simply identifying Yamato's biological sex or he isn't that well versed in trans etiquette and therefore made a mistake, but that's kinda very speculative. Considering two thirds of the introbox are correct, Yamato's name and Yamato being a self-proclaimed Kozuki Oden, it's hard to see the Kaido's daughter line being anything but factually correct. Volume 97 of the manga however will be dropping down soon so we'll see for sure if Yamato being identified as Kaido's daughter was what Oda really intended or not.
  • Lastly, there's Yamato's other quirks and such. Dressing like Oden, calling Oden's journal her bible, wanting to travel because that's what Oden did, and all that really point to her just simply being a super delusional fan than an actual transman. In fact, her reason in the latest chapter for deciding to help Momo further points to this. Oden was Momo's father and Yamato wants to be Oden. Yamato reasons therefore she should save Momo because he would naturally be her son. That's a huge leap of logic that could be considered idiotic especially considering the two characters have never interacted prior to this decision.

Yamato thus really doesn't come off as an actual genuine transman. It's really more accurate to say that she identifies as Kozuki Oden than as an actual man. So much so that one could make the argument that if one is going to use male pronouns for Yamato out of respect then they probably should refer Yamato to as "Kozuki Oden" as well because that's fully what the character pretty much wants to identify as. It really comes as this type of delusional situation rather than an actual trans matter.

As for other characters referring to Yamato as male, that's a confusing situation at the moment.

  • Kaido and his crew refer to Yamato as male but refuse to acknowledge Yamato wanting to be Oden. Considering that wanting to be Oden is specifically the point why she identifies as a man, what they're doing could be considered half-assed and disrespectful. We also don't yet know the full story behind all this. For all we know, Kaido seemingly accepting Yamato's identity as a man is because he's actually a sexist parent that doesn't want girls to inherit his legacy and is forcing everyone else to comply or face the consequences.
  • Luffy calls Yamato by the nickname Yama-o seemingly in respect for Yamato identifying as a male but Yamato doesn't like being referred as such. Luffy also seems to not fully accept Yamato as Oden so there's that.
  • We may need interactions from other characters outside Kaido's crew and Luffy to see how Yamato is meant to be referred as. Characters such as Momo kinda may have a higher say in this considering that what Yamato is doing could pretty much be considered as identity theft of Kozuki Oden, Momo's actual father.

Overall, it seems more accurate to refer Yamato by female pronouns, tropes, and etc. at the moment. This character is just not a transman based on what's been presented in the story and what actual transgender persons actually say.

It might come off as trans-erasure to use female pronouns but it might come off as more disrespectful to use male pronouns and claim this character is trans when everything about Yamato really comes off as simply being a hardcore fangirl.

rjd1922 Since: May, 2013
2020-08-27 06:20:10

That's a good argument for using female pronouns.

Keet cleanup
Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2020-08-27 06:21:04

Unfamiliar with the work so I have no horse in this race, but if the work is not definitive on how she is referred to, Gender Neutral Writing is also an option at least until it’s more conclusive.

Edited by Synchronicity
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2020-08-27 06:37:14

Our standard is absolute. We use whatever pronouns the work uses, or that the work's creator uses to describe the character(s).

Barring a definitive answer from that source, we use whatever is generally accepted within the community.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-08-27 07:03:50

^ Part of the issue in this instance is that what the work uses (male/son) contradicts the "Oda-box" the author uses to formally introduce the character ("Character's Daughter")

That said, the Oda box is the only time the character is referrerd to with female descriptors in-series before and after their introduction. Everyone else uses male-specific titles and nicknames, and I believe this is true in the Japanese as well as the official English.

To be the issue ambiguity comes from "does Yamato identify as a man? Or does Yamato identify as this specific person who happens to be a man?"

I tend towards the latter, personally, but really it seems like a Distinction Without a Difference since it makes Yamato male either way.

Edited by sgamer82
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-08-27 07:48:34

Many characters appear to use male pronouns when referring to Yamato
This implies that some characters use female pronouns. All characters and Many characters are distinct, and impacts my opinion on what is appropriate.
the Oda box is the only time the character is referrerd to with female descriptors in-series before and after their introduction. Everyone else uses male-specific titles and nicknames, and I believe this is true in the Japanese as well as the official English.
With that explanation, I support mentioning the gender dispute in their description, and enforcing male pronouns in examples.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
ImmiThrax Since: Apr, 2020
2020-08-27 07:57:11

It sounds like the work itself is variable about which pronouns are used, and since we follow the work's use, perhaps it's appropriate to vary the pronouns accordingly. You could use whichever pronoun was used in the particular example, and note in the description that the work itself does that.

Making this up since I don't know the work, let's say there's a scene where people talk about Yamato and how "he" wants to be like "his" idol Oden and follows "him"; that example would use those pronouns. In another scene Yamato's father talks about how "she" is his daughter, "her" clothing is a disguise. And if it's something where there's no pronoun use to go by, use Yamato's name (although it makes for clunky writing or getting really creative to avoid a pronoun), or default to what's most often used in the work. Apparently that's "he/him/his".

Right now, why those pronouns are used sounds like Speculative Troping. Maybe people don't know why they're used, but they do know that the work uses them.

Covered in Star Wars Cleanup, Deadpool, and Web Video sand. I'm not coarse and rough, but I get everywhere.
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2020-08-27 08:13:50

Does the narration/out of universe stuff use male or female pronouns more frequently?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-08-27 09:16:34

There hasn't been any out of universe/narration to judge, to my knowledge, outside of that one intro box.

  1. Basic sequence of events is that, before we meet Yamato, the arc Big Bad calls Yamato his son, as does everyone else.
  2. Our first sight of Yamato is while wearing a mask so we don't see a face.
  3. Upon removing the mask for main character Luffy, we see a female face and the intro box calls Yamato the Big Bad's daughter, but Yamato declaring himself male, as the person they most want to emulate was.
  4. Big Bad's side still refers to Yamato as male, while Luffy gives Yamato a male-particular nickname. Other characters who might contest it have not interacted with Yamato yet.

One factor that could be considered out of universe is that Yamato was introduced in a fashion that parallels another character, Kikunojo, that is explicitly transgender. They were introduced almost exactly a year apart and there was a thing with their introductory chapter numbers I forget offhand.

With all this in mind, again, my vote goes to male but with no objection to using gender-neutral. Female pronouns seem out of place unless we learn more/something changes.

Edited by sgamer82
ImmiThrax Since: Apr, 2020
2020-08-27 11:06:50

Googling further since I don't know this series...

Based on what people are writing, it doesn't look like Yamato is ever referred to as female except for that one infobox. Characters question the "wants to be Oden" part but are consistent with using male pronouns and "son", including Yamato's father, and when Yamato unmasks and a character is confused ("You said son, right?!") Yamato makes the declaration about Oden being a man and "I became a man". It looks like using female pronouns would be based solely on an infobox and having breasts, while everything else uses masculine language.

Covered in Star Wars Cleanup, Deadpool, and Web Video sand. I'm not coarse and rough, but I get everywhere.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-08-27 11:10:48

That's about the gist of it, yes.

fishysaur Since: May, 2018
2020-08-27 11:56:18

Ooook, so, to keep the counts, so far we have 1 vote for female and 3 for male, I think we're going to switch the pronouns

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