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Kuruni (Long Runner)
2020-07-28 04:45:06

Well, no surprise that he don't admit about edit war. He got banned twice for that already.

Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-07-28 04:53:01

It is an edit war. While possibly an honest mistake it still is one. The definition of GlassCannon is a heavy hitter with a glass jaw more or less and considering the character in question can take a beating would not apply to them. That's my take anyhow.

Edited by Tuvok
Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-07-28 04:53:06

Did they just add it back wholesale or add a version of the original edit back? Which would lead credence to an honest mistake, possibly.

Edited by Tuvok
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 05:14:16

Please, enough with the strawmanning. Are you here to get to the bottom of the problem or to try and attack someone?

First off, I added a reason because I understood that to the Po V of someone who doesn't play the game, especially with how impenetrable fighting games tend to be to those who don't play them, the trope would look odd. It is only natural when someone is accused of something they didn't do they'd defend themselves. You claim I "attacked" you for pointing out your constant accusatory tone and even later attempts to intimidate me into silence by threatening to involve the admins. How you claim that to be attacking, but your actions to be in good faith, I have no clue.

Secondly, you call my addition of Long-Range Fighter "questionable" despite Abigail indeed having some of the longest ranged normals (non-special attacks) in the game, whose range is a core part of his playstyle. His ability to land attacks on the opponent while they cannot do so to him facilitates his offensive. Is this not the definition of a Long-Range Fighter?

On the Informed Ability, I will admit to sinkholing, as I was not aware of that particular rule, but I hold that while pedantic it is true that Necalli does not have visible claws, However that, and the above, are neither here, nor there.

Now, onto the meat of the argument, of whether or not Abigail classifies as a Glass Cannon, and why I believe the answer here is yes.

Simply put, Abigail has a strong offense and a weak defense. His health advantage of 75hp over a standard character like Ryu, is worth precisely one or two pokes, or not even worth a throw, and is of relatively low importance in comparison to what really defines a character. His moveset.

And in that, you can see a clear weakness, which is shown in Abigail's gameplay. His lack of answers to pressure, and especially wakeup pressure.

To explain, in "classic" 2d fighting games like Street Fighter, when you are knocked onto the ground, you are effectively invincible until you get back up to your feet, at which point you resume vulnerability and ability to act more or less simultaneously. As a result, your opponent, who is not impeded from acting during this time, generally throws an attack of some sort, so that it's intersecting with your character's hitbox as it re-enters play. This is known as a "Meaty".

No the terminology doesn't always have to make sense.

Now, how does this pertain to Abigail? Well, to put it simply, Abigail needs atleast 3 frames to wind up for his most basic defensive options, such as his first V-skill, a "parry" in which he thrusts his chest out. Note that this takes 3 whole frames, meaning that if you try it when first waking up, you'll just eat a punch to the face again and be put back into a bad spot.

In comparison, most other characters generally have a mix of either Invincible Attack options, like Ryu's Shoryuken or Guile's meter burn Flash Kick, that give them extra options, better options when put in a blockstring, or other such tools, like Zangief's Flex and SPD and Dhalsim's teleport. Just about every character has some kind of tools for this situation, excepting a few like Balrog and Abigail who lack it.

Beyond purely wakeup reverals, Abigail is also poor against pressure in general due to a range of factors, such as having poorer short range moves than most of his competitors. When his opponent is swinging at him, Abigail has less options than other characters to rectify this situation, and as a result must suffer it longer and likely take more damage.

While I readily admit no character wants to be in a disadvantageous position and put on the back foot, other characters recover from that more readily than Abigail, who has his vulnerability to pressure and lack of defensive tools as two of his principle weaknesses. As such, Abigail's character is one who has overwhelming offensive potential (which none of us are debating, the man's damage needs no introduction, although it bears in mind just how long his range is and his mixup ability with his dash also play into his offensive power), but severely lacks in defenses, with no good reversals (oddly enough, V-reverals in street fighter V, aren't technically reversals by common fighting game vernacular).

I would consider this to be a Glass Cannon, and I believe that anyone else who's played the game, and especially Abigail would agree, raw numerical health be damned.

EDIT: Just as a sidenote, who the hell remembers minor edits they've made three years ago to a game they don't even play as much as some others?

Edited by DarthWalrus
Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-07-28 05:26:26

While possibly a mistake DW it was an Edit War. That part is confirmed yes? Also I know your feeling a bit miffed but perhaps take a breath.

Edited by Tuvok
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-07-28 05:31:47

I’m not sure what you claim I strawmanned here. If anything, I steelmanned your position and tried presenting it in the best possible light.

But to answer your question, this thread is as much about reporting your actions as it is “getting to the bottom of things”. Your responses have pretty much tied both issues together.

DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 06:02:32

Not sure how to quote people but

@Tuvok. Admittedly, by the barest technicality, it was. Like I said, it's been three years. How am I supposed to remember every edit I've made in that timeframe? It's a bit hard to remain calm when I'm constantly being hounded, however.

@Nubian For one, claiming I "attacked you" when all I did was ask for you to stop attacking me? For two, ascrbing to me malintent repeatedly, for three, using outdated statistics and downplaying my points in favor of repeating that he has 1075 (not 1100) health? For four, what actions? Daring to argue my points? Noticing how you have, and remain, to that last post, constantly in an accusatory tone?

Edited by DarthWalrus
Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-07-28 06:07:36

While some leeway comes into play, I lean towards not a GlassCannon due being able to take damage, more then one would think a usual sample could take. Waiting for others to chime in regarding the if it is or is not one.

Edited by Tuvok
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2020-07-28 06:17:28

Yeah, not an example. A Glass Cannon can't take a hit. The problem with Abigail is that he is vulnerable to hits.

Moreover, the entry is entirely predicated on the meta gameplay, something which is technically YMMV since it's a fan reaction. It's why things like Smogon are banned from Pokemon pages because they lead to unclear situations that likely weren't intended by the creators and definitely have nothing to do with storytelling, which is what this site focuses on.

EDIT in response to below: I don't think Nubian was harassive or accusatory and I think they did a good job of presenting as two-sided a narrative as one can when they have an opinion on the matter, which is admittedly never perfect. Calling them out for harassment in particular seems unfounded. While I sympathize with making an edit and not remembering it so I get that it's annoying to be accused of edit-warring even if it's technically true, unless there were P Ms I'm not privy to, "opening a thread for discussion and inviting you" sure as hell isn't harassing.

They're also entirely correct that the bullet you added on Informed Ability needs to either go or be completely rewritten since it breaks several site rules.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 06:18:25

Fine. I'll concede the point. Wasn't aware of that.

EDIT: Still consider Nubian's behavior to be accusatory and harassive.

Edited by DarthWalrus
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-07-28 06:33:14

Darth Walrus, you seem to think that me stating the fact that you Edit Warred (which, as has been established here, is a fact) as accusing instead of, you know, pointing out that you broke a rule. On top of that, I flat out stated here that while I personally thought you did it intentionally, that I still tried to open a dialogue on the Discussion page just in case it was an accident. Despite this, you have constantly shown pure contempt for the fact that I would even bother to bring up that what you did was against the rules even if intentionally. When I tried reasoning with you repeatedly and said that your attitude would require me to take this to ATT, your response was basically "How dare you try and threaten me? Fine bring this to the admins and see if I care!"

Every step of the way, I've tried to be civil and tell you why your examples are problematic and why the edits themselves were problematic and all you've done the ENTIRE time is claim that I'm bullying you by pointing these things out.

Edited by NubianSatyress
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 06:38:18

Allow me to be blunt. I responded in hopes of an open discussion on the merits of a trope, whether or not it applied. What I was met with was a relentless attack on your part against me, in which you repeatedly attempted to pin malintent on what was, in all honesty, something that had never crossed my mind, and honestly, I find it rather strange you'd search for an edit that happened three years ago.

After I repeatedly attempted to bring this discussion back on course and all that managed was you escalating to even more provocative attempts at overt harassment and even intimidating, threatening to more or less "try and get me banned", you act as if you were innoncent in all of this?

Even now, all you do is try to paint me as some villain for daring to have the temerity to argue back and expect you not to try and tar and feather me at every turn.

Edited by DarthWalrus
Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-07-28 06:39:24

DW, with all do respect Nubian Satyress was correct and her tone was ( to me) non-confrontational in the discussion page. To be honest you could have reacted better. Your response seemed more of an attack then their original statement in the discussion page .

Edited by Tuvok
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 06:44:45

Lets go over the following.

"this basically constitutes a 3-year-long Edit War."

Trying to paint it as something it most certainly is not, using words that bring to mind someone repeatedly attempting to revert a trope for three years straight, rather than what it was, a single edit that was pounced on immediately, and used as an attack vector.

"An edit war is an edit > revert > edit. And that's what you did. And it seems you even did it INTENTIONALLY, since you specifically added justification for re-adding it. You KNEW it had been removed and then put it back in."

Attempting to pin malintent on me.

"The ONLY reason I haven't brought this to the attention of the admin staff yet is because I can almost believe that you didn't really feel it would be a problem. But if you want to continue arguing this fact, then fine — if you refuse to let it go, I'll let them weigh in themselves. "

And what could this be except a blatant attempt at intimidation?

How?

It's inconcievable. I come in expecting a debate and get hit with accusation after attack after accusation right out of the gate for something that I can't even recall.

/takes a deep breath

Tuvok, I understand you're trying to play peacemaker here and I appreciate that, but you really don't seem to understand what it looks like when someone attacks you right out the gate with "Three year long edit war".

Framing is a thing and that was a malicious misframing if I ever seen one.

Edited by DarthWalrus
Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-07-28 06:51:36

Yes I saw the discussion. NS started with a neutral edit, you responded with a somewhat neutral edit then added. P.S. You can drop the accusations, thanks. "Three year long edit war". It's one edit.

That's an escalation on your part leading to and escalation on NS part. They did not make the opening shot they responded to one and it unfortunately escalated from there.

Edited by Tuvok
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 07:02:34

So you don't consider "Three year long edit war" a first shot?

But you consider "You can drop the accusations, thanks" a first shot?

NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-07-28 07:04:06

Ironically, it was the edit reason in the first place that tipped me off that there was probably an earlier edit and sure enough, when I Ctrl+F'ed "Glass Cannon", there it was.

Walrus doesn't seem to understand why I could possibly assume that there was ill-intent on their part based on that edit, but is more than willing to assume that everything I say and do is either malicious or "intimidation" instead of trying to warn them about the steps I would need to take to resolve questionable edits and an argument that is getting out of hand.

Edited by NubianSatyress
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 07:06:32

Maybe try to sound less like a mafioso and when it's clear there isn't any (except on your part), just stop with the attacks?

Whatever, it's 8 AM in the morning. Think what you will. I'm too tired for this.

Edited by DarthWalrus
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2020-07-28 07:07:06

No stake in that game, but even if NS is being offensive, the level of defensiveness you've put forth at most steps that are visible to me has been disproportionate. But like I said. I get that it can be annoying to be accused of edit-warring for forgetting something, even if it's technically true. I can also find it annoying to find out someone's been edit-warring and suspecting that it was malicious. But my point is, I highly recommend we all take a step back.

We're in agreement on the example in question, we're all reasonable tropers, let's just let this discussion end, there's literally no positive outcome possible to continuing this.

Sound good?

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 07:08:02

Well, this is an interesting thing to find right after editting my post. Sleep sounds good to me right about now and there's nothing you can do to stop me from seeking it.

Edited by DarthWalrus
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2020-07-28 07:09:31

Bueno. Sleep well, friend.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-07-28 07:10:38

The main thing has been resolved regarding the GlassCannon bit. Anything else should be left as is because it only escalates things.

Edited by Tuvok
DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2020-07-28 07:10:46

Will do.

Have a nice whatever it is wherever you are yourself.

/mumbles to self "Wasn't this supposed to be a productive all nighter? Whatever I'll do another one tonight."

Edited by DarthWalrus
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-07-28 07:11:20

I've done what I intended to do: bring the matter to others' attention.

Offending Walrus was never my intention, but I've definitely seen cases of people trying to sneak in edits years after the fact. I can accept that it was an honest mistake, but I wanted to be sure.

RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2020-07-28 10:58:43

Almost every regular editor on TV Tropes has edit warred by the strict definition; none of us have perfect memories of what we've added or removed before. "Years-long edit wars" are more often than not just honest mistakes.

RedRoverRedRover Since: Mar, 2012
2020-07-28 12:02:26

So, speaking as the guy who removed the example. I must say that Darth Walrus did not make himself look sympathetic here. Regardless of whether he agrees or not, he is taking things too far and not exactly being reasonable with other people, NS in particular. I understand not agreeing with somebody on certain topics, but he is blowing things out of proportion.

On another note, others have already said it, but the reason I removed the example is because while Abigail doesn't have good defensive options, he still has an insane amount of HP and it takes forever to knock him out because of that. I figured that a character designed to take tons of punishment just didn't fit the trope.

nombretomado (Season 1)
2020-07-28 12:04:57

I think what has blown this query up - accusations and defensiveness and discussions about edit-warring semantics - isn't going to go anywhere further. We can stop on that discussion.

DarthWalrus, you can take note of what others have said about steamrolling in, because multiple mods have seen this query, and agree you're overreacting.

If there is a general agreement to edit the example in question a certain way, go for it.

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2020-07-28 12:34:59

Also, Darth Walrus, you need to read over Conversation in the Main Page and Example Indentation in Trope Lists. There are many edits of yours that violate these rules.

Edited by SeptimusHeap "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2020-07-28 13:11:15

Not sure if Darth Walrus will return to this thread, so I sent a notifier.

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