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wingedcatgirl MOD (Holding A Herring)
2020-07-18 19:49:21

If I understand correctly, the first is strongly discouraged, but not forbidden. The second is outright forbidden.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-07-18 19:49:23

Technically you're both right.

While TNG's version isn't explicitly banned, it's frowned upon. It's called a "Self Fulfilling Spoiler". If people need to highlight the entirety of an example's text to find out if they're able to read it...it's the same as not marking it at all, whether or not you hide the trope name as well.

But yeah, the trope-name version is the one that's actually policy-banned.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
jjjj2 Since: Jul, 2015
2020-07-18 19:51:20

What concerned me is he deleted all of them on the character page and now some major spoilers are showing (in some cases the context behind a characters death is spoiled).

Edited by jjjj2 You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Zuxtron (On A Trope Odyssey)
2020-07-18 20:04:20

Stuff like this is why I argue in favor of making most character sheets Spoilers Off. Just seeing a trope name can be a massive spoiler since its position automatically tells you to which character it applies.

But right now, the default way is to have spoiler tags on the page, but also have a spoiler warning mentioning that trope names are visible and that they can be a spoiler on their own. Though if spoilers are a really big problem, just making the whole page Spoilers Off is also acceptable.

Edited by Zuxtron
Gideoncrawle Since: Dec, 2012
2020-07-18 22:11:03

An example with the entire text spoilered out is effectively a Zero-Context Example, which is forbidden. A reader who is not familiar with the work should be able to tell, without uncovering the spoilers, whether they are looking at a valid example of the trope. Otherwise, they will have to reveal the spoiler(s) to make that determination, which defeats the purpose of having spoiler tags in the first place.

Spoilering out an example's entire text is lazy at best. Whether technically forbidden or not, it's bad editing practice. We're here to trope works, not advertise them, and extensive spoiler tagging reveals an advertiser's mindset.

Bigotry in the name of inclusion is still bigotry.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-07-18 22:12:38

Can the examples be rewirtten to need less spoiler-markup, or at least better formatted markup? If not, then making the page Spoilers Off is the best move.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2020-07-18 22:19:04

Or simply not including the example. We don't need to document every instance of a trope.

2025: the year it all ends?
Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
2020-07-18 22:21:04

For blatant death tropes like Killed Off for Real, Heroic Sacrifice, etc. I think they should just be banned from character pages wholesale, since positioning them on the work page doesn't immediately spoil something.

Edited by Albert3105
jjjj2 Since: Jul, 2015
2020-07-18 22:24:16

Or I've been thinking we have a section on each character page reserved specifically for spoiler tropes.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Gideoncrawle Since: Dec, 2012
2020-07-18 22:30:56

Most death tropes shouldn't be on the Characters page in the first place, because they're not characterization tropes. They're plot tropes, so they should go on the main page.

Bigotry in the name of inclusion is still bigotry.
bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2020-07-18 22:32:58

^^^ A better solution is to ban all-white entries for such tropes on character pages, not to ban them outright. Heroic Sacrifice is perfectly fine if given context.

Edited by bwburke94 2025: the year it all ends?
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-07-18 22:39:10

Or...ya know, ban spoilers on Characters pages, but that might be too extreme.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2020-07-18 22:41:39

^ It absolutely is too extreme. The idea's been brought up several times, and shot down for exactly that reason.

The problem is all-white entries, not spoiler tags in general.

2025: the year it all ends?
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2020-07-18 23:07:09

I seem to have arrived a bit late, but here's my input/replies.

For some tropes (e.g. death tropes) there's not much you can do without spoiling even more. Most of us would obviously prefer, e.g. "Character Death: Charname dies when (block of spoiler text)" to "Character Death: (block of spoiler text)", but that's a minimal difference.

All-white (for the sake of eliminating confusion, I'm defining that as "everything meaningful except the trope/work name is under spoiler tags") is allowed, but not recommended. All-white examples are not inherently ZCE or self-fulfilling any more than a swiss cheese example would be. The ZCE rule considers the context given after spoilers are uncovered.

Making character pages Spoilers Off is not the way to solve this problem, assuming it even is a problem. That's equivalent to using a nuclear bomb when all we need is a hammer.

Splitting spoiler tropes from non-spoiler tropes would just lead to tropes being duplicated because an editor didn't check the other section.

Death tropes are (usually) a major event that happens to the character, so they are eligible to go on the character page. This is another thing we've gone over endless times.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-07-18 23:12:18

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting we actually make character pages Spoilers Off by default, just saying that it is a solution. An extreme, ill-thought-out solution, but one that would technically solve the problem.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Gideoncrawle Since: Dec, 2012
2020-07-19 00:02:39

^^ An event that happens to a character—even a major event—is NOT the same as characterization. Putting plot tropes on the Characters page, even if technically allowed, is bad practice because it (a) promotes duplication, and (b) maximizes spoiler potential. Note also that a Characters page is not a truly separate entity: it's considered an extension of the main page, and its primary purpose is merely to stop the main page getting too big.

Bigotry in the name of inclusion is still bigotry.
lu127 MOD Since: Sep, 2011
2020-07-19 05:50:42

Death tropes really shouldn't be on character pages, on account of not being characterization tropes and leading to headache-inducing spoiler potential. Also, 90% of the time, death tropes end up being ZCE on a character's profile.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
2020-07-19 07:09:31

Honestly, I can think of several main characters who [die and come back to life actually multiple times for all the characters I'm especially thinking of — by phlebotinum, magic, whatever — and therefore remain main characters] where I'd say the circumstances behind their deaths and the fact that they have died [and in the cases I'm thinking of, er, come back to life... yeah] do have a role in characterization. Things like Heroic Sacrifice —> Messianic Archetype

But in that particular instance, yeah, you could just put Messianic Archetype and the reasons for justifying that on the character page.

Edited by PointMaid
GeneralGigan817 Since: Mar, 2020
2020-07-19 07:56:25

I don’t understand the whole no [Trope Name] policy, merely knowing if a Trope happens in a work is a spoiler in and of itself, especially Death Tropes.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2020-07-19 08:30:59

Easy enough to find explanations.

Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
wingedcatgirl MOD (Holding A Herring)
2020-07-19 08:48:15

^^ Because if you're partway through reading some work and see

you will have zero idea whether you've already seen that event and are thus safe to look at the spoiler or not.

For the same reason, you can't hide a work's name on a trope page.

Edited by wingedcatgirl Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
TheNerfGuy Since: Mar, 2011
2020-07-19 17:32:56

To be fair, one of the violations I cited was spoiler markup that was above the example line; Administrivia.Handling Spoilers does say not to do this.

Since removing the spoiler markup, Tropers.Krimson Condor King did re-add a bit of spoiler markup for an example of Ascended Meme without a cited edit reason. Other similar entries have been added, too, albeit by different tropers. Request permission to remove the Self-Fulfilling Spoiler on that page?

TheNerfGuy Since: Mar, 2011
2020-07-20 05:20:08

After messaging Tropers.Krimson Condor King, he sent me two odd messages that sounds like he's trying to spoiler-tag entire entries and is acting like I agreed with them on the subject when my notifier and additional note was anything but.

Chytus Since: Sep, 2010
2020-07-20 08:32:21

Now he has added spoiler tags covering up entire entries, including the trope names.

Edited by Chytus
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2020-07-20 08:53:06

I changed those tags so that they're compliant with policies.

dragonfire5000 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-07-20 09:15:03

MichaelKatsuro, you should probably leave an edit reason pointing out that you changed the tags in accordance with the spoiler policy as listed in Handling Spoilers. That way there is no excuse for the other troper if they once again try to spoiler out the trope names.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
TheNerfGuy Since: Mar, 2011
2020-07-20 09:22:42

^^ Additionally, I think you shouldn't have whited-out so much of the entries; just because the trope name is visible doesn't stop it from being a self-fulfilling spoiler.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-07-20 10:33:15

^ Yeah, that's what I was saying in my first post. While it's technically allowed, it's still best if you can find something to leave exposed, so the readers have some context before going in.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2020-07-20 11:57:25

Some spoilered tropes are self-fulfilling by nature. We can't exactly do much to avoid that.

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