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ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020
2020-06-10 11:49:52

crossdressing is not, in itself, inherently LGBT. it's gender non-conforming, but that's not the same thing - cis straight people can crossdress if they want to.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2020-06-10 12:41:52

I've generally interpreted Hideri as a crossdresser. He never, to my knowledge, identifies as female outside of when he's working or performing and his crossdressing and attempts to be an idol are presented as Hideri being an Attention Whore taking advantage of an androgynous appearance.

pikachu17 Since: May, 2017
2020-06-10 12:59:33

So, should the entry be removed?

17 pikachus all in a row.
Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2020-06-10 16:27:46

I am inclined to remove it, considering that crossdressers arent necessarily LGBT.

bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2020-06-10 16:31:44

Crossdressers can still have an LGBT fanbase. Most obviously seen with drag queens, though that might be a separate mess altogether.

2025: the year it all ends?
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020
2020-06-10 16:33:19

^ right, but the issue at hand is that the entry says crossdressers are an LGBT fan base, and that's not accurate.

NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-06-10 18:11:51

Even in LGBT circles, what exactly encompasses the "T" (or the other letters for that matter) is constantly debated and fluctuating. It's partially accepted that, crossdressing, transvestism, and other forms of non-conformity count if only for the sake of brevity. That's one of the reasons that Q is often added for Queer, and crossdressing is almost always considered an example of queerness.

And yes, I'm aware that the trope LGBT Fanbase lacks a Q, I, A or +, but that's exactly the reason that I always say that people on this site have to be careful about assuming that the way we name or define tropes is an absolute authority. We name and define things based on site policy, not accuracy.

Edited by NubianSatyress
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020
2020-06-10 18:19:22

^ in my experience in trans communities, you're incorrect. most trans people don't use the word "transvestite" at all, and crossdressing, while falling under the gender-non-conforming umbrella, is not considered inherently queer. if cis straight people can do it and still be considered cis and straight - which is certainly the case - it is not queer.

birdsinthewindow Since: Apr, 2019
2020-06-11 12:04:54

Is there anyone who can weigh in as to whether this character is popular with drag queens/kings or trans people as well as crossdressers?

NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-06-11 13:11:48

^^ From MY experience in it, crossdressing tends to accepted more often than not because of how often it is a gateway for trans persons discovering that they are trans. Not every crossdresser is trans, but there is enough overlap that most LGBT circles I’m aware of err on the side of inclusion.

But as I said, it varies. Some sub-communities are less welcoming to avoid the risk of their spaces being overrun by heterosexuals with kinks.

Doing a casual Google search on the subject, I found a lot of examples that showed just how varied the attitudes on the subject are. For example, this Reddit thread.

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020
2020-06-11 13:17:09

^ fair enough. at this point it's your anecdotal evidence vs my anecdotal evidence, and that makes for an utterly pointless argument, so im happy to drop it.

that said, if the LGBTQ+ community can't reach a consensus about this, how the hell are we going to?

MyFinalEdits (Spin-off Series)
2020-06-11 13:42:17

I think the example should be removed, because if it claims the character is popular among crossdressers but not among transgender people (and as said here, they're not at all the same thing), then there's not really any involved part of the LGBT spectrum. Just because the two groups can overlap in some cases doesn't mean it does so here. Also, please let's not base things on "our experience", because that means nothing for the grand scheme of things (I have come to learn that the hardest way ever conceivable).

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020
2020-06-11 13:59:43

^ Nubian's link includes evidence that some LGBTQ+ folx do consider crossdressers queer. it's not as black-and-white as i thought it was.

NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2020-06-12 09:19:24

Yeah, the issue at hand is how this site plans on dealing with the ever-shifting spectra of the LGBTQIA+ alphabet soup. The point in Chloe and I mentioning our separate experiences is just to demonstrate that even the actual, real-life LGBTQIA+ communities have a hard time deciding what is or isn't included. The question is: does this site want to have a strict definition which is under the threat of being obsolete every five years or so, or does it want to have a broad definition which covers a wide berth at the cost of being somewhat bloated?

Zuxtron (On A Trope Odyssey)
2020-06-12 11:17:34

I don't really think that all crossdressers are automatically part of LGBT+. But, it's not something I feel particularly strongly about, and if others think they belong, I can tolerate the example's existence.

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