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HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
2020-04-10 20:53:52

I mean, I guess I'm not convinced that it IS an unfair exaggeration? Sure, it would be unfair to characterize every single Federation citizen or member world without exception as irredeemably racist, but the fact remains that, as an organization, it denied aid to a people facing an existential threat for racist reasons, and the way the first example is worded ties itself into rhetorical knots to try to excuse that. Like, fourteen member worlds threatened to secede because they didn't want to render aid to a historical enemy, and the rest of the Federation ultimately bowed to that pressure... and that's why they're NOT racist? What?

Edited by HighCrate
immichan Since: Jan, 2018
2020-04-10 21:06:42

Having not watched it yet— I understand High Crate's example better. It shows a cause and effect for the reputation among some fans instead of immediately arguing that it's unfair or mistaken to think that way. I don't know what the Mars situation is; it muddles the example for me. If it's actually important context, that isn't clear.

Edited by immichan
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2020-04-10 22:22:37

^^ I proposed it be put under Never Live It Down as it seemed the best fit for the issue here. If it was not an unfair exaggeration(which given the series was bound around Picard resigning over this it was meant to be a big a deal), it's wrong to put it under that trope.

Broken Base may be the best trope once the waiting period is up.

Should the NILD be cut as misuse/being contested?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught
HeavyMetalHermitCrab Since: Sep, 2018
2020-04-11 02:25:35

I think before anything, you might try rewriting your example so that people not already familiar with the story can understand what you’re trying to say. Then it would be easier to determine if the exaggeration is unfair or not.

Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-04-11 07:34:17

The Federation where being labeled racist for not putting in resources to save as many Romulans as possible. As their racism to the Romulans lead to their inaction. I can see the issue with that. 1- The Federation not acting was due to a series of unfortunate prior events including the Mars attacks and threats from other worlds seceding if they added the Romulans due to their past actions as an enemy making it a lose lose situation. Lose the moral ground or lose the support of important members when the Federation needed it most and 2- The Federation Worlds hesitation and reluctance to help the Romulans were not because they where Romulans . But because they had been a cold war and sometimes just plain war enemy for centuries and sacrificing resources to aid sometime enemy and expansionist Empire would cost more then they would gain, in short pragmatism.

Edited by Tuvok
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
2020-04-11 09:43:01

So the reasons the Federation didn't aid the Romulans are,

1.) Because Federation worlds with a grudge against Romulans threatened to secede, and,

2.) Because the Federation has a grudge against Romulans.

And that's why the Federation isn't racist against Romulans.

I say again: what?

Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
2020-04-11 10:44:54

Yes that was a bit jumbled wasn't it.

1) The Federation had to weigh losing important Federation membership worlds weakening them in a time of crisis and uncertainty. Choosing the unethical over the ethical.

2) Its was not because they hated the Romulans as a people. But the Romulan Empire and its history of conquest and the bloody history involved. The history with the Romulan empire and the strained and sometimes blood soaked relationship with the Federation made making an effort and the costs involved pragmatically impossible. Especially when the cost to the Federation outweighed the gain. It was not hate of the Romulan people themselves, but the history of the Romulan Empire with the rest of the Federation. It wasn't Racism it was history mixed with politics and bad timing.

Edited by Tuvok
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
2020-04-11 15:08:28

The thing that you are describing is racism. Federation member worlds not wanting to save lives because the lives being saved belong to a species that the Federation has longstanding enmity with. That is the definition of racism.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2020-04-11 16:11:26

^The 14 world threatening succession over it were racist, but if the Federation gave in to their demands out of racism or being held hostage by that they couldn't afford to lose them given the exceptional, desperate circumstances remans debated in-and-out of work.

Were there any other options the Federation could have taken?

Sounds like Alternate Character Interpretation is the trope this issue goes under (this is even debated in-work). How's this:

Should I replace the NILD with this? Anything to add/modify?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught
shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
2020-04-11 16:33:04

Some typos that need fixing:

  • "Was it racism that cause the fourteen worlds to threaten secession if the Federation aided the Romulan or the Federation to capitulate to said worlds or justifiable protest/distrust" => "Was it racism that caused the fourteen worlds to threaten secession if the Federation aided the Romulan and the Federation to capitulate to said worlds, or justifiable protest/distrust"
  • "the Romulans sordid history" => "the Romulans' sordid history"
  • "Would the Federation have added them" => "Would the Federation have aided them"
  • "could they not legitimately not afford the resources" => "could they legitimately not afford the resources"

Might be more that I missed.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2020-04-11 17:10:41

I changed the entry as the 14 worlds protesting aiding the Romulan was racism, regardless of the reasons. The question remains about the Federation going along with them and why.

Anything to add/modify?

Tuvok Since: Feb, 2010
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