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24th Mar, 2020 09:34:21 PM

Nonbinary is generally considered a subset of transgender, with the exception of nonbinary people who don't think of themselves as trans.

24th Mar, 2020 09:51:43 PM

I think that Transgender is seeing use as a catch-all, for lack of an NB specific trope. I think there was one started in TLP that ended up not going anywhere.

24th Mar, 2020 10:57:33 PM

It got turned into a trope about nonbinary character angst or something since just being nonbinary is not itself a trope.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast
25th Mar, 2020 07:04:19 AM

^ How is Transgender more of a trope?

25th Mar, 2020 07:23:55 AM

^ _(ツ)_/ The page was made back in 2009. It's grandfathered, if anything.

25th Mar, 2020 08:09:07 AM

It also used to be Transsexual until outcry prompted the change to Transgender, if that means anything. Until then, I think Transgender was a Useful Notes, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Edited by sgamer82
25th Mar, 2020 09:43:14 AM

Nonbinary and genderfluid people are sometimes described as trans under the qualification that it can mean anyone who doesn't identify as cis, but some don't consider themselves trans. I'm guessing the reason there's not tropes for non-MTF and FTM trans people is just that they're far less represented in the media. However, I think the simple fact of someone being trans is a bit iffy to qualify as a trope. "Is female" or "is male" aren't tropes by themselves, and even gay characters are troped by the type they apply to, not just that they are gay. Compared to the other groups, it feels weird that "character is trans" is being used as a trope just like that, though maybe it's because the characters are rare enough that their existence is a trope on its own?

Edited by 8BrickMario
25th Mar, 2020 11:48:30 AM

RE: "just being nonbinary is not itself a trope." It is, though? It's a significant pattern in works, and while it will not always be significant for its mere inclusion, it is during the current era, and it will always be such when discussing works from this era.

That said, "nonbinary character angst" sounds like a separate trope, which could be lumped together with "trans character angst," imo. (Something like Trans Angst or Trangst etc.)

RE: nonbinary people are trans but not all. The page does not have to be scientifically accurate, just so long as it's accurate to portrayals in works. I think it's perfectly fine to lump these groups together on a trope page. Not so on a Useful Notes page, imo, but Transgender is a trope page. We already have the separate UsefulNotes.Transgender.

[EDIT: Of course we have a page titled Trangst. The "nonbinary character angst" trope would then be Trans Tribulations, I guess...]

[EDIT x2: Friendly reminder that Transgender was made the trope page in 2018, not 2009. It was a redirect from at least 2012 until 2018 when people discussed changing Transsexual to Transgender.]

Edited by WaterBlap
25th Mar, 2020 01:21:56 PM

On second thought, I think I confused that with Intersex Tribulations, which had the same TLP journey of "intersex people are not themselves a trope" and is a lot more recent.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast
25th Mar, 2020 03:10:37 PM

I don't see a point in splitting non-binary examples from transgender since most enbies consider themselves trans, especially in fiction.

25th Mar, 2020 03:29:22 PM

Modern human examples of nonbinary characters would generally fall under transgender. The designation seems less appropriate for Non-Human Non-Binary, Otherworldly and Sexually Ambiguous, and other fantastical characters.

Edited by naturalironist
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