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21st Feb, 2020 07:19:03 PM

If nothing else, the Unfortunate Implications potholes have to go.

22nd Feb, 2020 05:10:43 PM

It was decided as Unfortunate Implications examples need citation, potholes to it should as it's sneaking it in against the rules otherwise. Cutting per this.

22nd Feb, 2020 05:19:31 PM

The user also inappropriately potholed Base-Breaking Character, which suggests they don't have the strongest grasp on editing etiquette.

23rd Feb, 2020 10:27:48 AM

Have you tried to PM them at all?

3rd Mar, 2020 10:51:02 AM

Bumping because it seems that Beyondthesea is continuing to make additions to other pages with a distinctly visible shipping agenda.

Their latest addition to the YMMV page for Civil War has a distinctly Ron the Death Eater edge to the Morton's Fork it presents for Captain America in supporting Bucky, which is in line with their previous edits establish that they trope from the perspective of someone involved in the Steve/Peggy vs Steve/Bucky ship war and who is eager to disparage the rival ship in-universe using a not-particularly-common and biased headcanon. Edit: And now it's been changed into an impenetrable wall-of-text of headcanons. Even if the overt ship bias has been toned down, it's now in violation of Clear, Concise, Witty. I feel like I'm experiencing deja vu.

Calling them into this thread now.

In case they try to accuse me of hypocrisy, I'm going to explain my reasoning beforehand.

I consider their edits as in violation of the site's troping etiquette in ways that the original versions of the entries for Avengers Endgame regarding Steve's perceived Took A Level In Jerk Ass do not, because the YMMV page is for documenting audience reactions to a work (thus semi-objective in nature), not putting your own opinions about it there (which are completely subjective and better placed in the Review section).

Those entries which I have reverted to their original state were impartially descriptive of the existence of the fandom response to Steve's characterization, rather than implicitly arguing for or against them directly, which is what Beyondthesea was doing, and which is against the site rules. And as Memetic Mutation and Memetic Psychopath shows, that interpretation of Steve's character described on the Endgame page is held by a rather large swath of the fandom including people not especially invested in Steve Rogers and his relationships, as opposed being the view of the Vocal Minority of militant shippers, which is what their edits both on Endgame and Civil War are guilty of being.

Edited by AlleyOop
3rd Mar, 2020 11:39:09 AM

I don't ship Steggy. I actually don't have strong feelings about who Steve Rogers ends up with either (I'm not super invested in him), and I prefer Peggy with someone else.

I made the edits I made to Endgame because I think the narrative surrounding that movie has been driven mostly by Stucky shippers and wanted to balance it a little. The Broken Base entry was clearly written by someone who didn't like the ending and I wanted to add the perspective of someone who did. I didn't delete anything that was already there. All I did was explain the opposing opinion, which the original poster had really only paid lip-service to. I don't doubt that there are Peggy fans out there who didn't like the ending, but I'm still freinds with a lot of people from the Agent Carter fandom (who are by definition Peggy's biggest fans), and the complaints are not coming from them.

As far as the Civil War edits go, that's only about Bucky to the extent that he's what's motivating Steve's actions. My opinion on the movie is that Steve is framed as the hero because it's a Captain America movie, when a lot of what he's actually doing is at best morally grey. As a result, issues that should be seriously grappled with, like whether the Avengers should have to get permission before going into foreign countries and whether people who are brainwashed should be held accountable for things they did while brainwashed, are treated like moral black-and-whites where we're supposed to agree with Steve and whoever's opposing him (usually Tony) is unfairly villainized. I would be just as annoyed by these things if the Winter Soldier was Peggy.

You don't have to be a Steggy shipper (or even dislike Stucky) to watch that movie and wonder whether Steve was genuinely doing what he thought was right or whether he was doing what he wanted to do for his friend and trying to use righteousness to justify it. All you have to do is acknowledge that there are some genuine moral quagmires here and that the movie doesn't do a great job of explaining why the characters are doing what they're doing.

Edited by beyondthesea
3rd Mar, 2020 12:14:22 PM

Your change to the Civil War page is much more balanced compared to the original version which seemed aimed to cast Steve in a bad light no matter what he did regarding Bucky, and I appreciate that, but it still suffers from other issues like Natter and Fan Wank from the perspective of a single person or a small group of vocal poeple.

What you describe in your last paragraph concedes to troping with an agenda and injecting your own subjective opinion on the film as objective fact. Corrective and well-intentioned or not, that's not what these pages are for. YMMV pages are about detailing audience responses, in other words semi-objectively describing existing fandom phenomena and trying to avoid values judgments. If you were pointing out a case where fandom was making widespread assumptions off of factual errors or things that were explicitly contradicted by the text itself that's one thing, but for subjectives like character motivations it's hard to prove that. If you're concerned that not enough people acknowledge that what Steve is doing is morally gray at best, that's already covered succinctly by the Broken Base entry downpage.

If your concern regarding Endgame was presenting a more balanced viewpoint, the answer isn't to counter perceived polemics by throwing out more polemics on the opposing side. One issue with these edits is that in attempting to challenge the existing entries they presented what were clearly opinions as facts and rebuttals. Note that in the OP I said some of your edits were originally rule-abiding even if there was a visible agenda of some kind. There's a reason why I let some of your additions stand, even as I deleted the rule-violating portions.

And speaking as someone who's contributed to some of those entries in the past, my additions were based on discussions held with many people both in and out of fandom, in real life and online, and many pages of discussion which were held on the forums for this site, including the standpoints of a lot of people who do not care for the ship wars. However, I always made sure to point out in my entries that these were the opinions of a group of people, and that they are not necessarily my own. Also note that your experiences with fandom are not more or less encompassing than mine, and were written in a way to argue that people with different opinions were wrong, and that's why there is a problem.

Edited by AlleyOop
3rd Mar, 2020 12:35:31 PM

I wouldn't say that having an opinion about the movie is an agenda. I did wait until I saw someone else voice that opinion before adding it, so it isn't based on just on one troper's opinion, but if it's too fringe that's fine. Frankly I'm not that attached to that entry and I'm fine with losing it. I just wish you had asked me whether I shipped Steggy before starting a shipping wank thread about me.

Are we even talking about the same Endgame entry? I don't remember adding anything to the Endgame YMMV page except for the points under Broken Base, but you said you reverted the changes, and everything I wrote is intact. I'm going to hold off on responding to that part of your response until I know we're talking about the same thing.

Edited by beyondthesea
3rd Mar, 2020 01:36:12 PM

My apologies, I'm used to frequently dealing with aggressive shippers and people with Bias Steamroller issues in the YMMV pages I monitor, and I'm involved in a lot of YMMV cleanup threads where these are recurrent problems, so I assumed the worst.

But yes, YMMV pages are not a place to post personal opinions, and I blame the YMMV label itself for inviting that sort of misconception, but it's far too late to change the namespace to Audience Reactions at this point.

First off, the potholing of Unfortunate Implications and Base-Breaking Character require citations and explanations as they were huge Flame Bait tropes in the past and it was the only way to keep polemicists from filling the YMMV page with their own opinions. People upthread have already discussed that as going against the rules. Another issue is that it implicitly takes a side in suggesting that to believe Steve's actions came off as selfish is itself morally offensive. As the cleanup threads point out Broken Base and Base-Breaking Character are not supposed to take sides, just describe what the factions are to the best they can. This edit goes against that. Furthermore -

One half of the fandom loves it and and believes... that adjusting to the modern era was less a genuine subplot that could have been undermined and more a Running Gag, given that it was almost always Played for Laughs and never carried any real emotional weight.

The last part of that section is treating the stance that Steve adjusting to modern life is little more than a humorous gag as an objective fact, when I've seen enough serious discussions in the forum threads and many places on the Internet regarding the moral dimensions of the conflict between Steve's Black and White Morality versus the introduced topic of the morality of surveillance in the current era and other questions involving the grayness of modern technology to know this is not the case.

Even if it's taking a literal interpretation of "adjusting to modern life" to mean scenes like the humorous conversation with the notebook at the beginning of of TWS then fine, but his serious conversation with Sam about PTSD right afterward undermines the Running Gag-only argument anyway. Hence why I removed it, as again, it was taking a side by deliberately ignoring points made by the other camp and thus in violation of the spirit of Broken Base. Whether or not you or others personally think their points are valid is irrelevant.

The newer version of that entry had problems as well.

...that adjusting to the modern era was less a genuine subplot that could have been undermined and more a Running Gag, and disagrees with the idea that it's selfish to make a major life decision based on what you want for yourself rather than staying close to your friends.

This newer version is more of a borderline example regarding side-taking, but even if you're just reporting others' opinions on their behalf rather than your own, that in conjunction with other edits still comes off as a form of editorializing that YMMV cleanup seeks to remove, hence why I deleted it.

The part of your entry where you point out that the former camp views the situation as a Running Gag is fine, and I kept it, because it's simply detailing the pro-ending side's viewpoints in more detail to counterbalance the anti-ending side's longer description (believing that that the description of the doesn't go into enough detail is entirely fair), and more importantly it does not make a values judgment about either side, just presents what's being said.

Edited by AlleyOop
3rd Mar, 2020 03:02:53 PM

Oh yeah, the potholing is something that used to be really common, and I guess I either didn't notice or was on a hiatus from the site when they all got cleaned up, so I didn't realize there had been a crackdown on it. That's my bad.

Oh, yeah, I was talking more about the cultural aspect: the list of movies and music, all the jokes about him not getting pop culture references in The Avengers, correcting everyone's language in Age of Ultron, etc. I actually did notice that had been taken out. I assumed it was done to cut down on length. My intention was just to describe why people were thinking of it as a running gag, but that's fair.

What if I just added, "and disagrees that Steve going back in time was selfish." I've definitely seen a lot of conversation about whether that's an accurate characterization of his actions, so I'd like to have it in there.

3rd Mar, 2020 03:10:58 PM

In that case I'd have mentioned the debate over whether Steve is selfish or not at the beginning as a part of the divide since as written it read as mid-paragraph Natter arguing with itself. If you want I can edit it back in.

Edited by AlleyOop
3rd Mar, 2020 08:50:09 PM

I would appreciate it! I mostly put it in there the way I did because I was trying to minimize my edits to what the other person said.

Edited by beyondthesea

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