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18th Feb, 2020 03:53:43 PM

That'sa lot of words... and nothing to do with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.

19th Feb, 2020 06:55:04 PM

^ To paraphrase from the Discussion page, the film relies heavily on the haves vs. have-nots, especially when it comes to the depiction of Latinos vs. Latinos - Tony's treated like crap by other Latinos who've "made it", such as his various bosses. Sosa being a very upper-crust, English-speaking white-washed dude definitely plays into his weird behavior (treating Tony as a guard dog) and threats to Tony.

I propose this:

"Chronic Backstabbing Disorder: heavily implied with Sosa, who behaves very strangely around Tony by keeping him as a guard dog, making faux-friendly veiled threats when their partnership is agreed on, and There is a race and class element: Sosa is very much European, upper-crust, and elitist - "blancos" are often stereotyped in Latin America to be backstabbing rich jerks."

Irked, have you brought in the original person who added that trope?

19th Feb, 2020 07:00:01 PM

^ That...doesn't explain the trope, though.

19th Feb, 2020 07:11:02 PM

Looks like a zero-context example to me. "A specific character constantly and successfully betrays their apparent allegiances, only to move on to a new group and repeat the pattern" - nothing written above shows how Sosa fits that definition.

19th Feb, 2020 07:20:22 PM

Oops, I think I screwed up editing.

"Chronic Backstabbing Disorder: heavily implied with Sosa, who, among other things, makes faux-friendly veiled threats when their partnership is agreed on (after murdering Tony's fellow gangster, with the heavy implication Sosa would have had Tony killed as well, if he didn't happen to like his sense of humor), and later forces Tony on a no-win assassination that'll wind up with Tony either caught, compromising his morals, or betraying Sosa. There is a race and class element: Sosa is very much European, upper-crust, and elitist, compared to Tony's low-class origins that Tony had been pushed around for before - "blancos" like Sosa are often stereotyped in Latin America to be backstabbing rich jerks, and given the events of the ending where he readily sends an army to kill Tony, he makes good on the stereotype."

Edited by WELCOME_BRIGADOR
19th Feb, 2020 07:56:04 PM

You still haven't addressed the "chronic" part. Who does Sosa backstab before or after Tony?

19th Feb, 2020 08:25:13 PM

I did: "(after murdering Tony's fellow gangster, with the heavy implication Sosa would have had Tony killed as well, if he didn't happen to like his sense of humor)"

In the film, said gangster is brutally executed via helicopter and dialogue implies Sosa's done this before.

To be clear, the entire discussion Tony has with Sosa also makes it clear Sosa was planning on betraying Tony's boss, and that Sosa's "negotiated" a few times with previous kingpins trying to get on Sosa's good side. Sosa later backstabs Tony.

19th Feb, 2020 08:26:48 PM

^ Then you should focus on emphasizing that, rather than the class stuff.

19th Feb, 2020 08:29:26 PM

So Sosa was allied with this "fellow gangster" of Tony's? That needs to be made clear, and the stuff Sosa says about betraying other people should probably be in there too.

Is the sociological aspect brought up in the film? Because otherwise it seems irrelevant.

Edited by Tarlonniel
19th Feb, 2020 11:59:03 PM

It is. A big part of the intro is Tony getting shoved around for being a poor Cubano dude by other Latinos and deciding he'll go into crime for good.

19th Feb, 2020 11:59:03 PM

It is. A big part of the intro is Tony getting shoved around for being a poor Cubano dude by other Latinos and deciding he'll go into crime for good.

20th Feb, 2020 05:42:39 AM

That's not what I meant. Is the "white dudes are backstabbing rich jerks" stereotype brought up in the film? If it is, it's relevant, but probably belongs under some other trope - one about stereotyping, maybe. If it's not brought up, it's just trivia.

Edited by Tarlonniel
20th Feb, 2020 07:32:07 AM

I'll have to rewatch the movie, as I remember someone shittalks Sosa that way (as well as a major argument early in the film before Sosa's introduced properly about class/Latinos vs. Latinos), but I don't think racial undercurrents implied from other characters and events prior to Tony meeting Sosa is simply trivia.

20th Feb, 2020 08:20:43 AM

... but how is it relevant to the trope at hand?

It's also sounding increasingly like Not An Example... the sheer levels of "implied" here make it a pretty tough sell to me.

20th Feb, 2020 10:59:17 AM

My issue is that you're spending way too much time talking about something that isn't actually related to the trope.

20th Feb, 2020 11:32:53 AM

The example sounds vaugely similar to Race Traitor, and not at all about Chronic Backstabbing Disorder. Killing underlings who threaten your position is normal business for criminal organizations, not a betrayal of trust.

20th Feb, 2020 12:00:13 PM

Warjay, I frankly donít know how clear I can make it thereís a race/class element to it thatís relevant after I rewrote it.

^ If that fits better, itís fine. Iíll check with the person who originally added the statement.

20th Feb, 2020 01:24:04 PM

^ But the example still doesn't seem to fit and goes off on a tangent that, while potentially relevant, is distracting and obscures the point.

20th Feb, 2020 05:09:38 PM

Jupree originally added the trope and they haven't edited since October of 2018.

Consensus seems to be that, as currently (re)written, it's not a good example of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, and the race/class stuff is marginally relevant at best. Anyone else want to weigh in?

22nd Feb, 2020 05:34:42 AM

Okay, well, I'll remove the example based on this discussion, and drop a link here in the edit reason. Any further debate would best take place on the work's discussion page.

22nd Feb, 2020 02:34:57 PM

What they said. Irked, go ahead and remove it, and I'll move the other stuff to Race Traitor.

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