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First two examples are not failures. The bad guy was still defeated both times.
"A scientist Kate was trying to save dies because she and Julia Pennyworth were fighting over who had the right to take down an assassin instead of protecting the man."
That's not what happens. It's unknown when that man is killed in relation to Kate and Julia's argument. And Julia started the confrontation, so that's not something that can be pinned on Kate anyway.
"Kate almost kills a prisoner because she had tortured him to the point that his wounds went septic and he could have died from an infection."
How is this an example of her failing?
Your last example completely ignores the context of why Kate doesn't just bring Alice in.
These also ignore other successes of Batwoman's, such as saving Sophie, stopping falling elevators, rescuing the train, etc, which make the claim of her being a Failure Hero shaky.
Edited by caivu My stories on AO3.
The first two examples are failures on Kate's part. In both instances Tommy and the Executioner would have killer her and gotten away if not for the interventions of others. She failed to stop them, and had to be rescued by Alice and Jacob. That's a failure.
The scientist does die because of Kate and Julia were fighting over the killer rather than protecting the scientist. The scientist gets killed by Mouse because neither of the heroes were protecting him.
Kate almost letting a prisoner die is a failure on her part because a man who was her responsibility almost dies because of her neglect and abuse. The guy's a criminal but he almost dies because of her treatment of him and she has to rush him to an illegal hospital to save his life. I repeat, she almost kills someone because she goes overboard on interrogation and her lack of knowledge on how to detain prisoners, despite having received military grade training. I think almost killing someone and needing your step-sisters underground hospital to bail you out is a pretty big failure.
The context of why Kate doesn't bring Alice in doesn't matter. Kate knows Alice has murdered multiple people already, and she goes on to murder still more people afterwards. She and Alice have no less than four "friendly chats" where Kate willingly let Alice walk away, and the one time she was motivated to stop her she revealed that she could take down Alice and her goons pretty much at any time. Unlike Batman, Kate is directly responsible for the people that die due to Alice's actions because she had multiple opportunities to stop her.
Yes, Kate feels guilty about Alice/Beth, but she also knows for a fact that Alice has killed people. She could capture Alice and bring her in to receive medical and psychological treatment, but she chooses to let her run wild and continue killing people, thinking that "Stop killing" will somehow stop her.
Kate's unwillingness to stop Alice despite her multiple opportunities and clear ability to do so is definitely a failure on her part.
And no, the claim of Failure Hero isn't shakey because Kate doesn't have a 100% failure rate. Again, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Batman and superheroes in general are brought up in the Failure Hero Trope, and even mentions how the hero can succeed, but such successes are few and far between, or don't wind up hurting the hero's main goal. It also mention how the plot contrives to make the hero fail, which does happen.
Rescuing Sophie ultimately does not hurt Alice's plan because Sophie is effortlessly captured later when Alice frames Jacob. Batwoman would have failed to save the train if Alice hadn't shown up to save her, because Alice want's Kate alive for part of her master plan. The show contrives to have Kate and Alice meet up, and rather doing anything to stop her sister from killing innocent people and getting her the help she needs, Kate just lets her go, resulting in multiple deaths, including her step-mom, and her father framed for murder.
As for the train, I've only seen the episodes in the first half of the series and the Crisis episode, so she well could have saved said train.
However, there is ample evidence for Batwoman being a Failure Hero. Again, Spider-Man, Batman and Daredevil get mentioned, so it's not exactly like she's in bad company, nor is it something she can't redeem herself from eventually. As it stands she is a failure hero, but later on it can always be "Subverted when she finally captures Alice".
"She failed to stop them, and had to be rescued by Alice and Jacob. That's a failure."
She saved the people in the elevators, and prevented the judge from being killed. Neither Tommy nor the Executioner walked away free. Not failures.
"Kate almost letting a prisoner die is a failure on her part because a man who was her responsibility almost dies because of her neglect and abuse."
Key word being "almost." And she gets the information she wanted out of him in the end.
"The context of why Kate doesn't bring Alice in doesn't matter."
Yes it does. She can't turn Alice in because the last time Alice was in custody, she was almost killed, and Kate doesn't want her dead at that point. Holding Alice herself runs counter to Kate's desire to see Beth restored, because Kate believes that the process has to be willing.
"And no, the claim of Failure Hero isn't shakey because Kate doesn't have a 100% failure rate.'
Quote from the Failure Hero page (bolding mine):
"Please note that being saddled with the pesky Status Quo Is God or Failure Is the Only Option tropes isn't enough to qualify someone as a Failure Hero; they must fail at not only the thing the shows says they can't succeed at, but at nearly everything else due to continual plot contrivances."
That doesn't happen.
"Rescuing Sophie ultimately does not hurt Alice's plan because Sophie is effortlessly captured later when Alice frames Jacob."
Irrelevant. Kate saves Sophie's life in the pilot (as well as those of a few dozen citizens). Two successes right there.
"Batwoman would have failed to save the train if Alice hadn't shown up to save her, because Alice want's Kate alive for part of her master plan."
What are you talking about here?
Edited by caivu My stories on AO3.
"She failed to stop them, and had to be rescued by Alice and Jacob. That's a failure."
She saved the people in the elevators, and prevented the judge from being killed. Neither Tommy nor the Executioner walked away free. Not failures.
She failed to stop Tommy or the Executioner. If Alice hadn't stopped Tommy, Eliot would have killed her and then the people would have died. Likewise the Executioner would have killed her if Jacob hadn't stepped in to save her. It was only through the intervention of two people antagonistic towards her that she didn't die, which would have resulted in the people in the elevator dying and the judge dying. That's a failure.
"Kate almost letting a prisoner die is a failure on her part because a man who was her responsibility almost dies because of her neglect and abuse."
Key word being "almost." And she gets the information she wanted out of him in the end.
Again, the only reason she doesn't fail is because someone else has to save the guy she nearly murders and that same someone is the one who gets the information she needed. Kate failed to get the info, failed to do basic prison upkeep. Someone else had to come in and save her from her mistakes and then get the info she couldn't so yeah, another failure.
"The context of why Kate doesn't bring Alice in doesn't matter."
Yes it does.
No it does not.
-She can't turn Alice in because the last time Alice was in custody, she was almost killed, and Kate doesn't want her dead at that point. Holding Alice herself runs counter to Kate's desire to see Beth restored, because Kate believes that the process has to be willing.
The one time Alice was taken into police custody was because Jacob had to step in and arrest her, when Kate was apparently willing to let Alice go again. The moment Alice does anything as reprehensible as corpse desecration, Kate decides to go capture Alice. There are numerous chances for Kate to capture Alice and safely deliver her to police HQ where she can be imprisoned and treated. That she refuses to do so, regardless of her reasoning, is a massive failure because people die from her decision. Multiple people.
When Family Guy's Lois Griffin cares more about the safety of innocent people due to a murderous sibling than Kate does, that's a bad sign. It doesn't matter what misguided logic Kate has for not going after Alice, failure to do so that results in the deaths of innocents is still failure.
"And no, the claim of Failure Hero isn't shakey because Kate doesn't have a 100% failure rate.
Quote from the Failure Hero page (bolding mine):
"Please note that being saddled with the pesky Status Quo Is God or Failure Is the Only Option tropes isn't enough to qualify someone as a Failure Hero; they must fail at not only the thing the shows says they can't succeed at, but at nearly everything else due to continual plot contrivances."
That doesn't happen.
Sure it does. Note the "nearly" at the end there. A Failure Hero does not need a 100% failure rate, only that failure, especially willful failure, be a recurring theme. And given how often Kate's failures require other people to come in and undo her messes, I feel she qualifies.
"Rescuing Sophie ultimately does not hurt Alice's plan because Sophie is effortlessly captured later when Alice frames Jacob."
Irrelevant. Kate saves Sophie's life in the pilot (as well as those of a few dozen citizens). Two successes right there.
Remember:
A Failure Hero might make some headway against a rival in the first or second round, but the rival neatly trounces them before the end credits, sometimes thanks to a Diabolus ex Machina. (The latter is especially common in potentially series-resolving situations.) Any "wins" he does pull off are ambiguous and open-ended, further the villain's plan, or blatantly make things that much worse for the unwitting hero.
Again, a Failure Hero does not have to fail at everything 100% of the time, as such a person would only work in spoof series. But Batwoman saving Sophie this time does not negate her other failures, the fact that Alice escaped, thus it's an ambiguous/open-ended victor that doesn't interfere with Alice's plan. Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil all routinely rescue people, but they were still placed on the Failure Hero page.
"Batwoman would have failed to save the train if Alice hadn't shown up to save her, because Alice want's Kate alive for part of her master plan."
What are you talking about here?
Sorry, that was a typo. It was suppose to be "would have failed to save the elevator", not train. Tommy would have killed Kate and let the elevator fall if Alice hadn't shown up. Alice then point blank states that she has "Big plans" for Kate, so her saving Kate and leaving Kate alive is all to further Alice's own agenda.
Edited by Ares101
"A Failure Hero does not need a 100% failure rate, only that failure, especially willful failure, be a recurring theme."
And it's not in this case. You're just trying to force all these things to fit when they don't, at all.
My stories on AO3.
"A Failure Hero does not need a 100% failure rate, only that failure, especially willful failure, be a recurring theme."
And it's not in this case. You're just trying to force all these things to fit when they don't, at all.
I disagree, and feel I've provided enough evidence to justify my position. You disagree, and it appears we'll have to agree to disagree.
But as I don't want to start any kind of editing war, I'm not going to make any further edits on the matter until someone outside of the two of us, preferably someone with authority, steps in to arbitrate matters. So we'll just have to see how this goes.
I haven't watched TV's take on Batwoman, but from what's being said here and on [1], Kate doesn't qualify IMO. The trope description is clear that they have to "never win. Ever". They always fail. From what is said here, Kate has failures and possibly more failures than unambiguous wins but she doesn't always fail.
(The trope page could use a cleanup for shoehorning not-actually-examples.)
For what it's worth, I know nothing about this show, and it doesn't sound like an example as written. Way too much conditional, "but actually if you think about it" sort of stuff.
Edited by nrjxll
She failed sometimes, as has Arrow, the Legends, Supergirl etc. Failing a few times does not make her a failure hero.
Edited by Tuvok
I think the idea is that every hero has to fail sometimes, otherwise they're a Boring Invincible Hero; the crux of the trope is if the hero can do nothing but fail. Otherwise, it's just pointing out that a character has flaws and can sometimes make mistakes.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Exactly , a few failures does NOT a failure hero make. Especially a hero 1) just starting out and 2) a hero who still gets the job done a majority of the time.
Edited by Tuvok
To be fair, this isn't a case of "she gets the job done a majority of the time". As mentioned, in the episodes I've seen (everything up to the Crisis episodes) she has only one unqualified success. Everything else is either a failure on her part, or a partial success, often because someone else had to bail her out. Again, if Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil are considered Failure Heroes, then it definitely applies to Kate.
But it sounds like most folks here feel that Kate is not a Failure Hero, and as someone who doesn't add tropes regularly I'll bow to that wisdom. Kate's repeated refusals to deal with Alice and the deaths they result in could perhaps be better fit under the Nice Job Breaking It, Hero.
"Again, if Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil are considered Failure Heroes, then it definitely applies to Kate."
Those are likely the sorts of shoehorned examples immichan mentioned above.
My stories on AO3.
Again, if Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil are considered Failure Heroes, then it definitely applies to Kate.
Actually that's shoe-horning . Not only that you would literally have to track down every example of hero in fiction and add failure hero because well rounded characters do not bat a perfect game. They all fail at some point and we don't call them failure as we do not call the Batwoman example a failure hero because failure is not their main trait nor hers.
Edited by Tuvok
OK, this is much too long for Ask The Tropers. Please do these in detail discussions on the discussion page, that's why it exists.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Here's a link to the discussion page, since there wasn't a link to Series.Batwoman 2019 anywhere else on the thread here:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Series.Batwoman2019
I've recently tried to add the following trope to Batwoman:
I feel this fits well within the use of Failure Hero, as the comic section specifically lists superheroes as having a problem with this in general, and lists heroes such as Spider-Man, Daredevil and Batman who suffer failures in their careers. Batman's entry even specifically brings up the point about the Joker escaping to kill again despite Batman going out of his way to recapture him.
With Batwoman, all of this applies and more. Before the Crisis crossover event, she had managed to capture a single supervillain out of multiple episodes, and chooses to let Alice go or not act on information to capture her, with it being acknowledge that Batwoman has had multiple opportunities to do so. And while Kate willing let Alice go, more people died.
Between a lack of success in general and meeting the same criteria that is applied to several other heroes, I feel this trope applies.
Yet one troper has deleted my attempts to insert this twice. Once when I erroneously put it on the YMMV page, which I acknowledge as a mistake. The second time it was deleted after it was put on the main page, which is where it would belong. It was deleted the second time for "Misuse of the Failure Hero Trope".
I feel the edit I wished to make was well within the scope of the Failure Hero trope. I'd be interested in knowing what everyone else thinks and if there's anyone I can bring this to.