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The TVTropes Trope Finder is where you can come to ask questions like "Do we have this one?" and "What's the trope about...?" Trying to rediscover a long lost show or other medium but need a little help? Head to Media Finder and try your luck there. Want to propose a new trope? You should be over at the Trope Launch Pad.

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Scorpion451 (Edited uphill both ways)
2020-02-02 12:20:15

Evil Is Cool is about evil getting the coolest of everything, but sounds like you specifically want Magnificent Bastard (in Evil Is Cool terms, the coolness here is the sheer brilliance and brazenness of their plans)

Giantleviathan Since: Apr, 2016
2020-02-03 11:31:02

I at first thought it was Magnificent Bastard, but according to the cleanup page, they must:

Not be too evil (Despite successfully executing a brilliant, multi-season Evil Plan and playing the entire cast like a fiddle, only losing due to an unforseen event [[Web Animation/RWBY Cinder Falls]] was disqualified for being a sadist), so I think you now have to be some variation on Anti-Villain, Noble Demon or at least Even Evil Has Standards to qualify.

Must be conventionally charismatic (For instance The Joker doesn't count as a Magnificent Bastard anymore because despite the fact that he mind games and manipulates everyone, he is "Too freaky to be charismatic." So characters that elicit fear are disqualified.

Also, you must wait till the series is over before adding, get it approved by committee. Get three forms filled out and signed in triplicate ect.

Okay that last one is a joke, but my point is TV Tropes is clearly defining Magnificent Bastard as a very specific trope. With multiple qualifiers. I'm just wondering if there is a YMMV trope for:

"This villain's schemes are BRILLIANT."

Without all the other qualifiers needed.

Edited by Giantleviathan
4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018
2020-02-03 14:26:16

I get the charismatic part but not the "Not be too evil" part. A villain can be admired for their clever scheming and charisma even if he is a Complete Monster otherwise.

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-02-03 14:27:42

^ It has to be a character the audience genuinely like and admire; and while you can admire someone's brains, you wouldn't admire or like the person if they use those brains for pure evil. At least, that's my take on it. Go to the MB thread if you want to debate it, not here.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Unsung Since: Jun, 2016
2020-02-03 14:46:24

The Chessmaster just means they MAKE plans, but they can just as easily be bad plans full of Bond Villain Stupidity.

I don't think this is quite true, actually. To qualify as The Chessmaster and not a subversion or parody, I think their plans do have to work, or at least have worked in the past or offscreen. Bond Villain Stupidity can be a one-time thing, but being a Chessmaster does imply something longer-term.

So yeah. Evil Is Cool does cover the non-combat, Non-Action Big Bad, and The Chessmaster is an Intelligence Trope.

4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018
2020-02-03 15:45:31

^^ My issue is that many examples of MB were also dog-kicking assholes, yet fans admire them all the same.

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-02-03 15:50:37

^ MB's in your opinion, or MB's that were officially agreed upon by the thread?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018
2020-02-03 17:08:20

^ "many examples of MB were also dog-kicking assholes"

This part is fact, btw

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-02-03 17:26:54

^ And I was asking if they're examples according to you, or according to the thread, which curates the trope and has the final say on what qualifies.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018
2020-02-03 19:13:01

^ when I say "examples", I meant "those that are listed in that page and the work pages"

I wasn't talking about definitions.

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-02-03 19:20:44

^ I know, I was just making sure this wasn't opinion based.

Okay, there's a difference between Kick the Dog and something like Moral Event Horizon- kicking the dog doesn't imply extreme and pure evil; it just implies being an ass for no reason other than to show the audience how much of an ass you are. Magnificent Bastards are still bastards- they just can't be pure evil, and there are lines where, if they'd cross it, the audience would stop admiring them.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Giantleviathan Since: Apr, 2016
2020-02-07 10:27:08

@War Jay 77 Even though characters like The Joker and Johan Liebert were once considered staples of the Magnificent Bastard AND the Complete Monster trope?

But on a side note:

"I know, I was just making sure this wasn't opinion based."

"And I was asking if they're examples according to you, or according to the thread, which curates the trope and has the final say on what qualifies."

I think that's part of the PROBLEM here. MB IS inherently a matter of opinion because what is "Cool" or "Magnificent" is ultimately going to come down to the viewer. It's inherently subjective and therefore, there cannot be a higher authority on the subject.

The thread may have given it's self the final say, but it is ultimately still their opinion and is no more objective than if 4tell0life4 added a character who's Evil Plan they thought was extremely clever.

Even the line you drew yourself:

"and there are lines where, if they'd cross it, the audience would stop admiring them."

HAVE been crossed by pure evil villains, and those villains are still admired for other factors by a large audience (The two aforementioned villains being a prime example), and not just a small outlier of sickos

In fact, being hated AND admired/enjoyed is something of a staple of the Pure Evil villain. As noted here: https://youtu.be/1-XprjlATEo?t=284

I realise this is somewhat off topic, but I admit I was a little offended when it seemed you were telling tell0 that their opinion meant less than anyone else.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2020-02-07 11:08:17

^ Listen mate, I'm just stating facts here. The MB thread (which I don't even contribute to, btw, so this isn't my opinion at all) does curate the trope. You can take it there if you want to argue about their standards, I'm just saying that as far as the wiki is concerned, they're the ones who decide which characters do and don't count as MB's.

I wasn't telling 4tell their opinion didn't mean anything- I was just asking to clarify if they meant characters they considered MB's, or characters the wiki considered MB's, because that changes a lot of stuff about the conversation. If the MB's on the wiki Kick Dogs regularly, I needed to find a way to explain why.

While MB is YMMV, there's very strict criteria because of rampant misuse and shoehorns. That's not my fault, I'm just passing on the message. Take it to the thread if you want- I'm literally not even a participant there, all I know is that there is in fact a lot of strict criteria and discussion surrounding the trope.

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Giantleviathan Since: Apr, 2016
2020-02-07 22:55:25

Just to be clear, I never accused you of placing your own opinions above anyone elses. There was a reason my post was about that thread and that even when a character DOES fit in the criteria, they dismiss it because THEY don't personally like it. I do agree some cleanup is necessary, but I think the METHOD of cleanup used by both the MB and CM thread are going about it the wrong way. Not just cleaning up misuses of the trope (Like the NF thread is), but even deleting examples they personally dislike.

As for why I don't bring it up there, because A) I'm just one guy who would be ignored and B), I've found their attitude to be incredibly arrogant and presumptuous.

papyru30 Since: Aug, 2016
2020-02-07 23:32:59

I won't comment on the Magnificent Bastard stuff but I personally think that Evil Is Cool works fine for smart villains. Also this conversation seems to have skewed pretty far from the original post. This is very much not the place for complaining about how the site curates examples, this is supposed to be about finding a trope that fits what your asking for.

Edited by papyru30
Giantleviathan Since: Apr, 2016
2020-02-12 14:57:01

Yes. It has strayed from its purpose. Anyway, I noticed most Evil Is Cool examples seemed more about action scenes and spectacle.

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