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12th Jan, 2020 10:26:38 AM

Sent a notifier to CometZTheAntiBrony to come here and discuss it. This was added as the edit reason, but this example length is simply never going to be acceptable:

Okay, so there's an extreme amount of information here. But...are you going to trust the self-aware developers, active reviewers, or the audience with this information? Danganronpa is a complicated series. It may be shorter than, say, The Simpsons, but it's also a creative series that is aware of how sadistic an audience would have to be to enjoy and be entertained by such a concept. So, can you REALLY dispute the distribution of such a large collection of information so abruptly?

12th Jan, 2020 11:13:25 AM

I split the trope list into folders, hopefully making the page more manageable to view until the entry is dealt with.

12th Jan, 2020 11:16:45 AM

^^ That edit reason worries me; sounds like they made the example this long to gush, or think that this is their opportunity to show everyone just how great the work is, which is missing the point.

As for the example itself, I like how even the potholes are massive. Like...damn.

Edited by WarJay77
12th Jan, 2020 11:50:02 AM

I love how the whole thing is just massive paragraph after massive paragraph, including potholed blocks of text that are larger than entire wiki pages, and then there's this one no-context bullet point that just says "User interface design and tools." sandwiched in between two other massive walls of text.

12th Jan, 2020 12:08:03 PM

Wow. Just... wow. That's longer than most academic papers. It's long enough to qualify as a novel. It's almost five times longer than the average Shakespear play.

Edited by Florien
12th Jan, 2020 12:21:01 PM

Maybe it could be moved to an Analysis/ page? Because even though it's as long as my laptop recharger's cord, it's pretty impressive and probably not a good idea to let it all go to waste. I'd also elaborate a bit on those interface design and tool part. But yeah, it may not belong on the main work page.

Edited by Piterpicher
12th Jan, 2020 12:40:26 PM

^ See, I don't know about anyone else, but I could barely skim through the thing, let alone read it. Even moved to an analysis page, it'd need to be trimmed, or at least the paragraphs broken up, so that it isn't a chore to look at.

12th Jan, 2020 12:52:12 PM

We need to make a separate page for it, and make a short term cleanup thread for it. I'll make the thread.

EDIT: Trimmed the beginning of example.

Edited by Playing_with_boy
12th Jan, 2020 12:59:09 PM

UpToEleven.Danganronpa V 3...

I suggest making that? *shrugs*

VV - yeah. That.

Edited by Malady
12th Jan, 2020 01:01:40 PM

I have Wide Load on while I use a 1920x1080 monitor that is a bit over 20 inches wide by 11 inches tall. That Unreliable Expositor pothole is over 3 page scrolls long.

This is unacceptable. Clear, Concise, Witty, people. Just nuke the whole thing until it can be fixed.

12th Jan, 2020 01:21:01 PM

Before we start hacking away though, we should see if the example creator responds.

12th Jan, 2020 02:18:36 PM

I'm a huge Danganronpa fan (look at my avatar), and even I can barely begin to grasp what this is trying to say. It seems like one part is a very in-depth summary of every murder in the game compared to its corresponding one from the first game, with the entirety of the first game's cases being put under a single long pothole for some reason. Another section describes every execution scene from these games (but not from the second one, for some reason).

12th Jan, 2020 03:58:50 PM

The execution scene part in particular is a good starting point. I think we can at least chop that down to "Here's a brief description of one of the executions from the first two games. Now here's a brief description of one of the executions in this game to illustrate how much more over-the-top this game's scenes are." We don't need a recap of every execution scene in the game, and I don't think we need the Japanese name for each one of them either. Leave that sort of precise detail for a wiki that is about the games.

Edited by Serac
12th Jan, 2020 06:55:51 PM

OMG super wall of text! Kill it with fire!

12th Jan, 2020 07:17:37 PM

I moved the example to Sandbox.Danganronpa V 3 Up To Eleven so we can try to clean it up. I'm feeling kinda tired, so I'll take a crack at it tomorrow, feel free to get started in the meanwhile.

Edited by Zuxtron
12th Jan, 2020 07:40:23 PM

We should tell the troper to come here.

12th Jan, 2020 07:41:27 PM

^ Two notifiers have been sent so far.

12th Jan, 2020 08:28:57 PM

Can I say something? That Up to Eleven example was THE prime example of an Up to Eleven Wall of Text.

Edited by alnair20aug93
13th Jan, 2020 04:39:26 AM

Danganronpa has as much reading as that abomination did. Yes, the original source really divides the speech of the characters into something more manageable by having everyone say something in snippets, but that's because its format as a game allows it to do that. Danganronpa's also as long as it is because it's trying to immerse us all into the experience, like limiting information from us until necessary. Trying to recall the ambitious events of a series of games, novels, and animations like that is like trying to recall a wall of text as a result of how it tries to pertain to realism in that manner. There's as much going on in all of it that someone trying to relay EVERY event in detail from 1 to V3 would result in plotholes, nuances, and general indulgence problems.

13th Jan, 2020 05:18:43 AM

It doesn't matter if the source material has a lot of text. As previously said, the preferred style on TV Tropes is Clear, Concise, Witty. I looked at the example list and I've seen pages shorter than that.

13th Jan, 2020 07:16:51 AM

To put this in perspective, this entry for Up to Eleven has more words in it than the entirety of The Old Man and the Sea. And not the page, I mean the book itself. If we to go by Nebula Awards categories, it would qualify as a Novella on its own.

It really, really doesn't need to be that long. Most entries can get their points across in a paragraph or less.

Edited by chasemaddigan
13th Jan, 2020 09:59:22 AM

Seems like someone already went ahead and got rid of the massive list of every murder in the first and third game, which made up the largest portion of the example. The next place that needs trimming is the list of executions, but I'm not actually sure what point it's trying to make. It says that they're "amplified to their most distasteful", but the examples underneath don't compare the level of tastefulness of the executions.

13th Jan, 2020 10:01:06 AM

Seriously; tropes aren't so you can put as much information as humanly possible in them. They're just to describe narrative patterns. Imagine writing a novel's worth of text about, say, That Poor Cat.

13th Jan, 2020 10:36:55 AM

I've expanded the "user interface design and tools", as it was pointed out that it's awkward for it to be empty. Anyway, I'd recommend that we should stop saying how long this is (it may have actually been pruned too much, like with the thematically point), though I don't plan to expand it either.

13th Jan, 2020 05:29:22 PM

I deleted the Japanese translations of the executions.

14th Jan, 2020 06:23:29 AM

If I can be a bit callous for a moment:

I would just nix the entire thing. We don't have to humor someone just because they wrote a novel-sized treatise on something, especially not when there's no clear thesis. This is just creating work for other editors.

I've done these type of salvage jobs before and it's a massive amount of work for a tiny payoff. Don't get sucked in; ask the other editor to find a clear, concise example instead. If there really is a good example in there, it's not your responsibility to find it.

If they want to spend 30,000 words gushing or analyzing something they can post it on a blog.

14th Jan, 2020 11:11:47 AM

Doesn't TV Tropes actually provide blogs?

14th Jan, 2020 11:57:27 AM

^^^^ I'm going to disagree that this was trimmed "too much". There's still huge, unwieldy paragraphs that do nothing but explain someone's execution in great detail, as a specific issue; we need to focus on the most important information; giving a scene summary doesn't do that.

14th Jan, 2020 01:43:43 PM

I'd tend to agree with Whitecroc that no one should be faulted for just cutting this thing outright.

That said, if y'all want to spend the time and effort to comb through it for something to salvage, well, that's your time and effort to spend.

Maybe cut-and-paste it into a sandbox so it's not cluttering up a live page while you do so, though.

Edited by HighCrate
14th Jan, 2020 02:12:51 PM

^ I did cut-and-paste it into a sandbox. Sandbox.Danganronpa V 3 Up To Eleven.

I still feel like the descriptions of the executions are unnecessary, since they don't get across the point that they're supposed to be making, which is that those in V3 are "amplified to their most distasteful".

Actually, I think that everything about the example could be shoehorning.

14th Jan, 2020 02:16:05 PM

^ Oops, my mistake. Ignore me, carry on.

15th Jan, 2020 03:07:34 AM

^^ Yeah, my point exactly. Those examples, even if we need them, are way too padded.


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