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14th Nov, 2019 04:45:01 PM

If it were up to me, I'd say "only if it does something different from canon"... but I distinctly recall the official ruling being conflicted on this.

14th Nov, 2019 06:27:56 PM

I don't find it particularly useful to list tropes with the same example text in both the original work and the derivative (expanding the case from fanfiction to sequels and remakes).

However, I would find it odd to see a full context example of Action Girl (and many other tropes) to be identical in both works, even for the same character.

14th Nov, 2019 06:43:10 PM

Yeah I agree with ^^, but not sure if there's an official policy.

14th Nov, 2019 06:46:52 PM

Yeah, I think it's pretty unnecessary.

14th Nov, 2019 06:49:24 PM

I think it depends on focus, if it's a fanfic with a lot of Action starring Alice, then yeah it makes sense to point out Alice is an Action Girl. If it's a fanfic that focuses on the love triangle between Alice, Bob and Billy that doesn't have her in any action scene, it'd say it's superfluous.

Edited by BlackMage43
15th Nov, 2019 01:34:55 AM

^ I think the same.

15th Nov, 2019 02:23:02 AM

A fanfic page can list all tropes that apply to the fanfic. That they also occur in the original work is irrelevant, as we cannot assume that people will be familiar with either the original work or the tropes contained therein.

15th Nov, 2019 04:01:29 AM

Of course, "can" does not mean "must". If a trope's an exact rehash of the source work, I might choose to not add it to a page, but I would not remove it if someone else were to add it.

15th Nov, 2019 05:15:08 AM

This query can apply most to "canon rewrite" style fanfics, which is guaranteed to share tropes with the source work. On such pages, it might be best to just leave them off since it just swells the page.

15th Nov, 2019 06:44:54 AM

^ - Then that level of replication of canon events is likely a trope of its own, removing the need to duplicate tropes demonstrated in the scene.

Not sure what trope it is, but I think we have it?

Fix Fic, Recycled Script, or related?

Edited by Malady
Fighteer MOD
15th Nov, 2019 08:42:26 AM

As Septimus said, an article for a fic would list tropes that occur in that fic, regardless of their presence in the parent work. So if Alice is demonstrated to do Action Girl things in a fic, Action Girl would be a valid example for that fic.

It is absolutely not valid to list trope examples from the parent work that are not used in the derivative; this applies whether it's a licensed derivative work or not.

15th Nov, 2019 11:04:25 AM

FWIW, I was imagining this issue more on the trope pages than on the works' page for the fanfic, where someone reading the Action Girl pages would theoretically get to read about Alice being an Action Girl dozens of times in slightly different ways before they even get to the example from Alice's actual work.

That's what strikes me as redundant.

Fighteer MOD
15th Nov, 2019 11:32:02 AM

That strikes me as unlikely since the original work and the fics based on that work would go in different folders.

15th Nov, 2019 12:08:17 PM

As it happens, I remember a specific example of what we're talking about (or at least WarJay's approach, on trope pages as opposed to work pages). Red Is Heroic once had a had over a dozen Neon Genesis Evangelion examples in its fanfic folder, all citing Asuka and few offering any new details specific to that fanfic. At one point a few years back, I got tired of multiple entries with the same thing and compressed it to "most NGE fics associate Asuka with red, just like the anime does".

Fighteer MOD
15th Nov, 2019 12:23:52 PM

^ Unfortunately, that is a Zero-Context Example, also violating "Examples are not general". The underlying issue there seems be the core problem with most appearance tropes: inherent lack of meaningful context. "She wears red and she's a hero" is a quintessentially bad example.

Unless the examples make distinct or especially interesting uses of the trope, they should probably just be cut.

15th Nov, 2019 12:59:29 PM

^ - For "distinct or especially interesting uses of the trope", you're talking about appearance tropes only, right?

Not "Any tropes from the original work that appear in fanfics should only be noted if they're special"?

Fighteer MOD
16th Nov, 2019 05:56:34 AM

Yes, I am talking about appearance tropes.

16th Nov, 2019 07:54:23 AM

This problem was brought up with respect to Alliterative Name here.

16th Nov, 2019 09:09:06 AM

By removing examples from fanfiction pages that are present in the source material one claims that those are not notable. And There Is No Such Thing as Notability. So such examples should stay.

16th Nov, 2019 11:39:03 AM

They're notable, but the alternative to removing these examples is to have a page full of "Pinkie Pie appears in this fic and has an alliterative name", with no extra context, no meaning that isn't already found in the parent work. All works are notable, but not all examples are notable if those examples have no context or share no interesting information, and these derivative examples don't do that... at least, if they do, it's very rare.

I mean, I do agree with you. I don't like the idea of just slashing away at Fanfic examples for being derivative, exactly for the reason you cite... but we need some solution!

16th Nov, 2019 01:49:18 PM

I don't find it particularly useful to list tropes with the same example text in both the original work and the derivative (expanding the case from fanfiction to sequels and remakes). Alliterative Name is an example of a trope where we should only list it in the parent or franchise work page.

29th Nov, 2019 09:39:08 AM

Bumping because someone seems a bit insistent that we reach a conclusion.

30th Nov, 2019 02:09:57 AM

The official answer to the OP question is "Both". We cannot assume that the reader of a fanfic is familiar with the original work.

30th Nov, 2019 07:21:42 AM

What I usually see is something along the lines of "Many of the tropes found in [Parent Work] also apply here".

30th Nov, 2019 09:42:08 AM

Well, I thank that for trope pages, don't list tropes that appear in both the source work and the fan work; but for work pages, list tropes that appear in both the source work and the fan work.

30th Nov, 2019 09:55:27 AM

^ This is the same compromise I was going to suggest. It's what I've been doing for one works page.

Edited by Kirby0189
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