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Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2019-10-02 10:42:37

I don't have a horse in this race, but for the record, you shouldn't disclose P Ms in a public setting like this. It's frowned upon. Mods can look at P Ms privately if there's an issue that needs to be sorted out.

nombretomado (Season 1)
2019-10-02 10:52:24

I have deleted the section with PM contents. OP, please acknowledge ^.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2019-10-02 10:53:50

Courtesy link (I think?) Ideally, YMMV is supposed to document a wider audience reaction than a single person. By your own admission, your edits were portraying a personal opinion you know isn't shared by the wider fandom, which doesn't bode well for your argument.

Also you have a serious Natter issue and you're adding tropes based on audience reactions to main pages (such as here where the Jerkass Has a Point entry isn't rooted in the text of the work but rather an Alternative Character Interpretation).

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 11:30:44

OK, sorry about that. But isn't YMMV for opinions of varying mileage? Also, I DID add it to the YMMV page.

Edited by CatcherInTheWry
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2019-10-02 11:48:24

YMMV is for opinions of varying mileage, yes, but not just the opinions of single fans— that's how natter and edit wars and such start. We're here to be informative on how the fans, plural, think of the work, general opinions and beliefs about the movie, not literally anything any one viewer has felt. If that were the case, basically all YMMV pages would have all possible tropes and reactions included, which isn't feasible...

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 13:28:09

OK, because I was under the impression that YMMV was a place to share opinions of varying mileage. You are also under the assumption I was the only one who feel this way. We cannot round up everyone on the internet and take a survey, can we? I am annoyed because I feel I had my opinion taken down because someone didn't like what I was saying about a character they like. I made an entry. I rationalized it. He/She is not doing this because of any natter problems, but because, as she/he puts it, I am wrong and being unfair to a character they like. Can any of you actually give me a real reason that isn't based on my "inaccurate information", which is simply not true, you may disagree with my interpretation of the information, but that's different, my "outlier opinion" you can't prove that I am the only one who feels this way- Listen, I am just upset because I feel that Mr Death is being unfair and just trying to take my entry down, because I think that he/she likes Shang, and is upset that someone is criticizing him, and that all this is just a misguided attempt at defending a character he/she likes. And that is very frustrating for me. OK?

dragonfire5000 Since: Jan, 2001
2019-10-02 13:30:17

No, YMMV is not a place to share opinions. It's about documenting general audience reactions.

The place for sharing opinions is the Review section.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 13:31:31

OK, Look: That may be it, but I was not aware of it, and this official message does not help my impression: The [[article]] edit you made looks like you are deleting someone's opinion. The YMMV items are going to have opinions which might differ from yours. That is kind of the point. Please only remove things from YMMV that are factually incorrect. We'll be sure to leave your opinions up. Please extend that courtesy to others.

Edited by CatcherInTheWry
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2019-10-02 13:37:08

...Okay.

First off: We're not mods. We're just regular tropers who understand the rules and are trying to help you understand the situation.

Second, it never does any good to paint opposition as whiny or unfair. The issue here is that instead of trying to debate over whether or not your example is valid, you're just arguing that they don't get YMMV, and when we tell you that they do understand what YMMV means, you get angry at us for explaining it to you.

I've no real stake in whether or not your example is added or not (though I do think the first could be trimmed down a bit, regardless). I just think you're misunderstanding what YMMV is for and going about this in the worst way possible. Try to calm down.

Edit: Okay, I see you changed your above post, though what I say still stands. While you are correct in that removing opinions on the grounds of disagreement is wrong, you also need to remember that YMMV still has criteria beyond "some fans somewhere might think this maybe". Many of them require a large amount of the fandom to think this.

While Informed Attribute may be ok if cleaned up, your Unintentionally Unsympathetic example seems a bit of a shoehorn, as if the only issue is whether or not you personally think he's a good captain...

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 13:45:05

What about Unintentionally Sympathetic / Unsympathetic? You're right, I don't understand. You might wanna rewrite a lot of pages on YMMV is to clear it up.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2019-10-02 13:51:15

Well, like we said, it's for documenting the opinion of, at least, a portion of the audience. And while sure, you may not be the only one with your opinion, I've certainly never see anyone else consider Shang a bad captain, or find him unsympathetic because of it.

And Mr. Death has a good point that you're basing your opinion on a Training Montage, which skips all of the boring stuff and just shows the action. How do you know he didn't give instruction?

Another point is that this was the reserves, a back-up army just in case, and I believe they had limited training time. Shang may not have been able to start slow, if I'm correct.

Finally, the movie obviously paints the army as inexperienced, but skilled— they do save China after all, so how bad could Shang have really been at his job if he did manage to turn an unruly and inexperienced lot into a skilled team?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 14:00:08

1) Again, I was unaware that there needed to be a consensus. 2) A montage, from what I have seen, is designed to show portions of the time skips that reflect a larger meaning of what I have seen. Even a small portion with Shang saying some clip of how to hold the bow correctly or a correct fighting stance-even that would have sufficed to gain understanding. 3) That's true. But starting your students off with something difficult is just asking for failure. 4) No, Mulan defeats almost the entire Hun army by herself with a rocket. Her three buddies hold off the Huns, Shang is quickly knocked out, and then she beats Shan Yu too. That is only a reflection of Mulan's group.

MrDeath Since: Aug, 2009
2019-10-02 18:58:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVcLIfSC4OE The montage, for reference.

I direct your attention to the last 45 seconds or so of the montage where:

  1. The recruits are clearly shown hitting the fruits with their arrows (something all the recruits were seen struggling with earlier)
  2. Mulan is shown keeping up with the water carrying (something Mulan was seen struggling with earlier)
  3. Mulan is shown keeping up with and even knocking Shang down while sparring (something Mulan was seen struggling with earlier)
  4. The big guy is nimbly hopping across the polls over water (something he was seen struggling with earlier)
  5. The group is shown competently moving in sync doing a kata
  6. The short guy is running unscathed through the flaming arrows (something he was seen struggling with earlier)
  7. The skinny guy successfully breaks a stone with his head (something he was seen struggling with earlier)
  8. Mulan catching a bunch of fish (something she was seen struggling with earlier)
  9. One of the rockets hitting its target (something the recruits were shown struggling with earlier)

The purpose of all of those is extremely obvious: To show that the recruits are learning and improving. How can you look at all that and conclude, "Shang is a terrible teacher, and therefore unsympathetic?"

The movie makes it absolutely clear that whatever Shang's doing is working, even if the montage doesn't contain some specific scene that you decided it's incomplete without.

Ergo, yes, the opinion that Shang is a bad teacher is an outlier, particularly considering you admitted to me that you just plain don't like him.

Edited by MrDeath
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 20:47:16

So your point is that the recruits got better? I'm not saying that they didn't. I'm just saying was that, at the very least, Shang would have done better to start them on something simpler. I never said I disliked Shang, just that I didn't adore him. I did not start off being this invested in this. Your utter insistence on making sure that Shang's record being clean on the YMMV being utterly squeaky clean and going out of your way to point out every instance of Shang being a good leader has evolved from annoying into downright aggravating. Nothing ruins a YMMV discussion like some uptight stan getting defensive and silencing people because they think that they're favorite character is being bashed. Yes. My opinion is an outlier. Where does it say in the rules, "You can't put an outlier opinion in the YMMV"?

AegisP Since: Oct, 2014
2019-10-02 20:48:50

That's policy actually. We dont put just about every single differing opinion on YMMV.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2019-10-02 20:54:22

Remember what I said above. Don't lose your temper. Nobody is trying to keep all criticism of Shang off the page, rather we're just trying to be more objective about Shang's leadership and follow the consensus aspect of YMMV.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 21:05:59

Whatever. Do what you want. I'm too tired to argue about this anymore.

CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 21:05:59

Whatever. Do what you want. I'm too tired to argue about this anymore.

CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-02 21:05:59

Whatever. Do what you want. I'm too tired to argue about this anymore.

Edited by CatcherInTheWry
2019-10-02 22:57:18

Oh baby a triple!

Sorry

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2019-10-03 05:42:23

Neat, name-calling and a tantrum.

If you want to discuss examples, do it on the page's discussion page. ATT is generally for when someone starts breaking the rules and/or discussion is going nowhere.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
potshotbeta (Life not ruined yet)
2019-10-03 07:00:08

...Heck. I don't have a problem with Shang, but I've never conceived of a Shang stan. I kind of want to start calling myself one just because it's a fun phrase. "Hi, I'm potshotbeta, and I'm a Shang stan."

MrDeath Since: Aug, 2009
2019-10-03 07:11:42

I made one edit removing what appeared to be a bad-faith example that, at best, misunderstood the scene and the trope, and how YMMV works. I promptly forgot all about it — because, honestly, I don't care all that much — until the angry PMs started rolling in.

She made several edits on that page and others that seem aimed primarily at making Shang look bad (the Jerkass Has a Point entry, for instance, is very petty), then weeks later came here to gripe about it being removed.

I don't think I'm the one here who's fixated on the cleanliness of Shang's record.

Edited by MrDeath
CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-03 08:27:28

This is a very skewed version of what happened, but again, I'm not interested in starting fights.

CatcherInTheWry Since: Feb, 2015
2019-10-03 08:34:52

Honestly, I could care less about being proven wrong about wiki's policy, (Even if I'm confused, because I've been here for a couple years) but when you try and bring in accusations of character bashing and try and complain that I'm wrong about Shang, coldly brush me off instead of explaining yourself when I send a single, civil, PM explaining what's wrong, then I get worked up.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2019-10-03 08:43:06

... mods, can we lock this?

You've been told where to hash this out. At this point you're just double posting for the sole purpose of whining.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
nombretomado (Season 1)
2019-10-03 09:17:05

OP, if the consensus gathered after disagreement is against you, it's against you. Seems like those examples have been found lacking.

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