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7th Aug, 2019 07:02:34 PM

the pages need ZCE cleanup, so im going to do that. ill make note of the tropes that are listed as invoked.

also, the tone of the article is uncomfortably gushy, especially considering its only been edited by one person, probably the author. ill be cutting down on that too. i think it's a clear case of pimping one's own work.

7th Aug, 2019 08:07:24 PM

okay, im burned out on this fucking article right now. there's more work to do, but it's clear this is willful and malicious misuse of invoked tags to make audience reactions stay on the main page. my cleanup attempt shows a huge number of ZCEs, a ton of word cruft, loads of gushing on the main page, and more, but this abuse of Invoked tags is the most important issue.

99 of the page's 126 edits were made by Ingonyama. please, please suspend them and tell them to clean up their own mess. i don't want to do any more of their work for them.

Edited by razorrozar7
7th Aug, 2019 08:26:05 PM

i have PMed Ingonyama and asked them to take part in the discussion here.

7th Aug, 2019 10:04:55 PM

I worked alongside user Ingonyama in the creation of that page. At the time and even to this day, we genuinely had no idea that we had been doing something wrong (I admit to not even knowing what"Invoked" means here, nor "ZC Es" nor "word cruft"), but we are willing to fix it and make it appropriate, if given a little direction and the time to do so successfully. Though I won't deny I take offense at user razorrozar7's post in listing the examples, as the last part of it came across as needlessly harsh. I can understand being frustrated, but I feel there's no need to be rude about it.

7th Aug, 2019 10:12:02 PM

^it wasn't directed at you or Ingonyama; it wasn't even directed at the fic, which sounds pretty awesome and which i will probably read. it was the article. there was so much misuse and whatnot that i couldn't deal with it anymore. i apologize if it came across like i was yelling at anyone; it was more just that i needed to yell. i would have P Med you as well, but i didn't see your name in the edit history.

fwiw, a suspension isn't a punishment, it's just a tap on the shoulder to let you know "hey, this thing you're doing isn't exactly kosher".

im willing to work with you and Ingonyama to help you understand how to bring the article up to wiki standards. i apologize again for my tone. i was simply frustrated by the mess.

7th Aug, 2019 10:13:10 PM

Okay, a number of responses to this.

First off, no I am not the author of this fic, my boyfriend is; obviously that makes me somewhat biased, but in that case I would be an Entry Pimp for it (rather than the author pimping his own work), and that would explain the praise and gushing.

Second, while I realize in retrospect that the main YMMV tropes (moments of awesome, funny, and heartwarming, nightmare fuel, tear jerkers, and so forth) should not have been potholed even if they also exist on the YMMV page, I would argue that many of the other tropes you've called out do in fact happen in-universe, or it's at least clear my boyfriend was intending these tropes to appear or be referenced in some way, depending on the circumstances and context. However, since that's just my word and his stated intentions, not something everyone would agree on, then I shouldn't have included them. And even if, after reading it, others agreed they were there too, that still wouldn't be enough to allow them on the main page. My apologies.

Finally, all of that said, I think I am just going to delete the page. I obviously don't want to be suspended, and hopefully me coming in here (with my friend who helped me create and add to the page) to explain myself and to ask for assistance in fixing it is enough to prevent that. However, it feels like that just as it would be too much work for you (or anyone else) to go back through the whole thing, it would similarly be hard for me at this point. Particularly since it seems clear I can't be objective about my boyfriend's work. And really, after what I've read here and in PM, and seen on the page, I am really finding it hard to have the heart to care about it any more.

Again, I'm sorry.

Edited by Ingonyama
7th Aug, 2019 10:16:31 PM

as i said, im willing to work with you to bring it up to wiki standards. im afraid you can't simply delete the page; see The Fic May Be Yours, but the Trope Page Is Ours. once you put it on the wiki, it can't be removed except under very specific circumstances. since it's here, we might as well try to fix it.

7th Aug, 2019 10:22:06 PM

That hardly seems fair either, since I would think a page violating the rules would justify deletion. But fine.

Even so, I still do not see how it can be fixed, if it is that awful. It's one thing to go through and remove all the invoked tags and potholes to YMMV tropes (and I can do that right now on the M to Z page). But when you say the majority of the page is just too much praise and gushing, too much Word Cruft, or too many words without actually providing context, then I have no idea how to fix that even with assistance since that seems more of a style issue (and even one with the way I think and write).

So if it's too much work for you to go through, then unless others come in and assist, I really don't know what to do at this point.

7th Aug, 2019 10:29:53 PM

here's my suggestion: create a Sandbox page (Sandbox.A Different Lesson) for the fic. ill post a few problematic entries there, explain the issues they have, and rewrite them to fit with the guidelines. it's not too complicated; you should get the hang of it pretty quickly. after that, ill continue advising and helping you repair things. it's okay if it takes a while; as long as we're actively doing work to fix it, no one should get in trouble. it's probably even better to do it a bit at a time, as trying to do too much at once is what led to my mini-flameout earlier. even if we only do a few entries a day, we'll eventually get the job done.

for what it's worth, im glad this fic is on the wiki. i wouldn't have discovered it otherwise. i want others to have the same chance.

7th Aug, 2019 11:02:38 PM

Not to pile on to the already big list of things that need to be done, but the work page's namespace is miscapitalized (should be Fanfic, not Fan Fic), so it'll have to be cut and recreated at some point with the right capitalization. The page image is also severely lacking, quality-wise — do you or your boyfriend have a PNG version of the image?

7th Aug, 2019 11:02:57 PM

I'm not really sure it will work as well, or in quite the way you think. Providing context from the fic itself is one thing (and my friend can do that as well as me, if not better), but if it's style issues with how things are written/how wordy they are, I don't think that's something that can be fixed with just a few examples from you, or even many. Again, if that really is that big an issue, my friend would probably be better to help with that since he's far less wordy than I am.

That said, I have now created that page. Though with the length of the fic, and the nature of the issues, it may take quite a long time indeed, unless others help besides you, me, and Rem. (Also, I still think you'll be able to help better after you've actually read the fic which...will also take some time LOL.)

Again, thanks for saying so. Though also for what it's worth, the fic is listed on the KFP Fanfic Recs page (nominated by both me and Rem) so it could have been discovered that way as well.

7th Aug, 2019 11:11:17 PM

I believe that would be because the namespace capitalization hadn't been changed when the page was first created. So now it's spelled right in the URL, but not on the page. Urg.

Um...he does have a PNG version, but it lacks the fic's title. Is that okay?

7th Aug, 2019 11:15:24 PM

ill get started on reading the fic tonight. im going to take a bit of a break from the wiki for now. ill be back before this time tomorrow to get started on the cleanup.

thank you for being understanding.

7th Aug, 2019 11:32:46 PM

Thank you for being so as well. I truly am sorry for all this, I never meant to cause any trouble. And I was just really frustrated, depressed, and upset over this whole situation...I hope the sandbox will work, that'll go a long way toward making me feel better and be able to handle all this.

My boyfriend also thanks you for your understanding, he was very happy I made this page for his fic so that more people could know about it, and he also had no idea about any of this or that it needed fixing. So he's pretty depressed too right now.

I do hope you enjoy it!

7th Aug, 2019 11:35:36 PM

Well, the good news is this problem should be fixable. Raz knows the ropes, so you and the page are in good hands. I'll also be willing to lend a hand if ya'll need it.

7th Aug, 2019 11:42:04 PM

Well, it shouldn't be that hard to add the title to the PNG version, should it?

If not, then yeah, that'll be fine.

8th Aug, 2019 02:37:51 AM

Hmm...he and I have been trying, but because the PNG has such a larger scale, any text we insert is way too small, even at maximum point. :/

4th Oct, 2019 12:53:29 AM

So it's been quite some time...not sure if the original troper has just been very busy with life, or delayed by reading the story, or what. But anyway, I've actually pretty much gone through all the tropes that were commented out, and the ones in the rest of the trope list that I thought would be considered similarly ZC. But before I make any final edits I want to see if I've done things better this time around. So since no one has responded to the Sandbox, here it is, where I've included the A's.

Different Lesson Sandbox

If these meet with everyone's approval, I can do each group in the sandbox, letter by letter, or just edit them all at once and see what everyone thinks. If there are things which still need fixing, then after doing so I can apply similar fixes to the rest of the list and then go from there as before.

4th Oct, 2019 02:25:41 AM

yeah, i apologize profusely, ingonyama. ive been having a really rough time lately and i just haven't had the energy to devote to a project like this. im really sorry.

4th Oct, 2019 04:33:33 AM

I understand completely!

But if anyone else wants to look at what I put in the sandbox (that is why I posted the link), and see if they think my revised entries are good or need further tweaking, I'd really appreciate it. Because that would let me know whether to post the other entries, move on to making the edits to the work page, or what.

4th Oct, 2019 11:06:15 AM

The A-tropes now have a great deal more context, so if the rest of the ones commented out for lack of context follow those, you're good to go. (I would just suggest keeping Clear, Concise, Witty in mind going forward.)

Formatting-wise: Each entry should read as if it were alone in the list, so under The Atoner, you can remove the "Also" in the second bullet and under Aww Look They Really Do Love Each Other, you can remove the "Additionally". Quotes should have one more dash than bullet points, so in the same entry, there's bullet-bullet, so the dialogue demonstrating the entry would be dash-dash-dash-greaterthansign.

As for the entries with removed tags, a lot of them do have sufficient context as you said in paragraph 2: Big "WHAT?!", Catapult Nightmare, Comic Roleplay, Earn Your Happy Ending... The only thing to mind in those is chained potholes.

4th Oct, 2019 06:04:18 PM

Like I said, this is why I was very uncertain initially about how to fix these issues, since I was told both that entries lacked sufficient context and that many were too detailed and wordy. I wasn't sure how to give context without falling into the lack of conciseness. (How much is too much? Which examples require more words to explain the context, and which don't?) So again, I think I'll need to post each letter at a time and ask for opinions, particularly on ones which ended up being longer entries.

Ah, I didn't think of that "each entry must read as if alone" point; thanks for that.

On the potholes, I usually only use them when all the tropes mentioned genuinely apply, but I'll see what I can do. (I imagine if those tropes already are in the trope list, they don't need to be mentioned in other entries?)

EDIT: Okay, fixed the quote-formatting and the "also/additionally" bits, and I removed the pothole for Elemental Powers since not only is that in the main trope list, it's a Super-Trope to Making a Splash anyway. The double pothole under Ax-Crazy is necessary though, I believe, because not only is one a Character Trope, it's one which makes the Even Evil Has Standards noted right after it even more unusual. (I.e. even this kind of character has standards.) Everything else good?

Edited by Ingonyama
4th Oct, 2019 06:23:49 PM

the only thing with multiple potholes is you need to have at least one non-potholed word breaking them up so people can tell there's more than one link there without mousing over.

4th Oct, 2019 06:33:07 PM

Got it, and already on it, thanks!

4th Oct, 2019 08:59:08 PM

And now the B's are in the sandbox.

4th Oct, 2019 11:52:40 PM

I wasn't sure how to give context without falling into the lack of conciseness. (How much is too much? Which examples require more words to explain the context, and which don't?)
It sometimes depends on the trope. I think it helps to consider what the trope boils down to and that's the bare minimum needed in the entry (and what I go by when commenting out ZC examples on other pages). For example with Black Cloak, you need: 1. this is a bad guy, 2. this bad guy wears a black cloak. The details about what it's made of and how it functions is icing on the cake. I mean that in a good way. Clothing/appearance tropes often suffer from too-little context.

B-sandbox looks good. Broken Pedestal should be split into a Po sub-bullet and a Tai Lung sub-bullet, since they are two different examples of the trope.

  • Broken Pedestal:
    • Po, regarding his parents, but mostly his father Bao. While he'd never believed himself to come from a glorious, heroic lineage, it nearly crushes him to learn that his father was a deserter from the army and that this, as well as an earthquake destroying their home, led both his parents to become highwaymen, bandits, and even murderers. It's Foreshadowed in Chapter 17, when Po decides to go fetch snacks for the Truth or Dare:
      Po: Don't worry, I'll leave some money down in the kitchen for the innkeeper. I may be a lotta things, but I ain't no thief.
    • Tai Lung learns more of just why Oogway would not give him the Dragon Scroll, why Shifu did not stand up for him, and why both of them chose to lock him away in Chorh-Gom without ever visiting or considering releasing him. He becomes rather disillusioned, too, and certainly gives them both the sharp edge of his tongue.

Some entries have a lot of "this trope" and "this". (e.g. Po is this, Tai Lung demonstrates this trope.) They're not bad per se, but too many instances of those are cruft-y. Let me find one... OK. On the examples list is:

Which can be written more smoothly to (just for example):

5th Oct, 2019 12:05:27 AM

As you saw, I did indeed make sure to note why it was important Chao wears a Black Cloak, which I assumed was important to give context beyond a villain's fashion sense. Glad to know I was right!

Hmm, I didn't think about that but you're right, Broken Pedestal is long enough (and involving different characters/situations) to require sub-bullets. I think part of the reason I didn't do that was because I still wasn't sure how to put a quote in between bullet points, so thanks for the example.

I'll check on the "this"es and similar syntax to get rid of as many as possible. But just FYI, the trope you used as an example is one I already had rewritten for a bit more context in my notes, and the "this" was already removed. :)

Edited by Ingonyama
5th Oct, 2019 12:49:39 AM

Okay, C's are in the sandbox.

9th Oct, 2019 03:24:59 PM

I've now added the D's, E's, and F's to the sandbox. If no one has any objections to those (since it seems I've got the hang of how to provide context now), I'll see about doing all the rest of the tropes that seemed clearly lacking in context, right on the actual work trope list.

9th Oct, 2019 05:34:41 PM

Nothing in the sandboxes jumps out (indentation's good, spoiler tagging is reasonably used...). I think you're good to go with the rest of the examples list (F to Z).

10th Oct, 2019 02:33:44 AM

Thanks! There's things which really shouldn't be spoiled IMO, as they're a big part of the enjoyment of my boyfriend's work, but I did all I could to keep the spoiler text to a minimum.

The only other thing I'll need to do is making a Shout-Out tab, since there enough it needs its own page.

10th Oct, 2019 11:57:30 AM

And complete! *wipes brow*

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