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mr_allen Since: Apr, 2015
2019-07-19 01:18:30

They'd be mutually exclusive here. As it's written the Anti-Climax Boss example is a Zero-Context Example as Weblinks Are Not Examples. Also, if the strategy requires looking online to learn or some really in-depth knowledge on how the game works than it's more than likely not an example of an Anti-Climax Boss. And because it's relevent here, That One Boss can have strategies that can make them really easy but it'd mainly be things that you wouldn't know without any help.

Edited by mr_allen
MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2019-07-19 01:59:02

The Anti-Climax Boss example isn't ZCE and fully explains how the strategy works. It also doesn't require in-depth knowledge since most fans of the series already know how broken order stacking is (first example under Game-Breaker). It's a simple strategy that can be summed up as follows:

  • Order 1: Attack Its Weak Point (all attacks bypass the target's defense and inflict critical dmg.).
  • Order 2: Demolition Boost (anti-tank dmg. buff)

Use both orders on the same shocktrooper, then turn 'em loose. Mission Accomplished.

So if the boss can be taken out that easily with a simple strategy using in-game mechanics, can they really be considered That One Boss?

shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
2019-07-19 03:39:09

Yes, a boss can be both - players are different, so what is laughably easy for some might be really hard for others. There's a reason the tropes are YMMV.

Also, not everyone is a fan of the series. There are always new players that don't know things that seem obvious to fans.

EDIT: Also, yes, as written the example is Zero Context. It does not explain anything, all it says is "a single shocktrooper can drop both of them back-to-back". You need to explain HOW it can be done - and no, that link is not an explanation - Weblinks Are Not Examples.

Edited by shadowblack
MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2019-07-19 08:56:35

^The explanation is given in the second Game-Breaker example. Explaining it twice would be redundant. Besides, Anti-Climax Boss is about how disappointing a boss turns out to be despite the game hyping them up as being nigh insurmountable, or really tough - which the example explains.

Klaus is regarded as one of the Imperial Army's best tank commanders and single-handedly wiped out most of the Federation's reserve army, along with Squad F in the same blitzkrieg. Crymaria is a living WMD who literally sank two Federation battleships at the same time. The Federation Army shits themselves in any cutscene either of them appears in and you have to fight both of them in chapter 15. Yet, in terms of gameplay, they're a joke if abuse order stacking.

Edited by MiinU
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2019-07-19 09:19:06

Abusing or exploiting game mechanics does not satisfy the criteria for Anti-Climax Boss, so the example should be removed.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
2019-07-19 09:24:19

Just a note, but: An example should stand on its own and not rely on other examples. So that note you added at the end of the example should explain what "order stacking" means (for non-fans reading the example) instead of refering to an example that might get changed or removed later.

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2019-07-19 09:29:19

^^The description for Anti-Climax Boss doesn't resrict exploiting game mechanics. It says it applies to any boss that can be taken out as easily as an Elite Mook or Wake-Up Call Boss.

Order stacking is used throughout the game and encouraged by the in-game tutorial that introduces it. The game itself outright tells you to use Claude's orders to turn the tide of battle in your favor.

^Edit: I've now edited it to briefly explain how order stacking works (provided in the note to keep from cluttering up the example).

Edited by MiinU
Zuxtron (On A Trope Odyssey)
2019-07-19 09:50:25

If a boss can easily be defeated using a basic strategy or trick, they're not That One Boss. Just because it's YMMV, doesn't mean you can put anything on there, there are certain criteria that an example needs to fulfill to be valid.

Sure, some players will find a certain boss easy and others will find the same boss hard. But That One Boss and Anti-Climax Boss (and all other Audience Reactions) are about widespread reactions. If one person finds a boss fight difficult, that's not enough to add it to That One Boss. The battle has to become notorious among fans for being a massive difficulty spike. And if you just have to give two buffs to one unit to beat the boss in one turn, that's not a good example.

Kayube (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2019-07-20 11:39:14

So would that mean that the tropes cancel each other out and neither should apply?

Darkaros Since: Jul, 2009
2019-07-20 14:37:24

I'd remove both tropes.

Order Stacking as described isn't exactly a novel strategy. It's been around since Valk Chronicles 1, and there's tons of bosses that can be "cheesed" this way (such as that mission where a Sniper could just keep trying to hit Selvaria from the start). Some of the levels are even designed around cheesy play in order to get the highest rating. I don't see how it's an Anti-Climax any more than any other boss that's beaten with a Game-Breaker in the series; you'd apply it to practically every other boss.

Meanwhile, I agree with Zuxtron that it's not really a widespread reaction for That One Boss. For starters, the example directly compared here from VC1 (Jaegar putting armor on his tank is described as a struggle) is laughable because it's one of the missions designed around cheesing. From the Valkyria Chronicles page under Dungeon Bypass:

  • Similarly in Chapter 17's battle against Jaegar, you can simply destroy his otherwise-regenerating armor as soon as possible; it won't be repaired by enemy camps after it's destroyed and top-rank Lancers just barely have enough firepower to take it down with full Command Point usage, so you can completely ignore the tedious recommendation of capturing the four guarded camps around the map.

One thing that isn't made explicit (but implied by the toplevel Dungeon Bypass comment) is that this level is actually impossible to get the highest rank on if you don't use this strategy. I haven't played VC4 yet, but I imagine it's the same case with this boss.

It's neither trope. It's just a boss with the mechanics of the game — both for high end players with Dungeon Bypass strats and newer players who might struggle — in mind.

Edited by Darkaros
MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2019-07-20 16:25:23

"I don't see how it's an Anti-Climax any more than any other boss that's beaten with a Game-Breaker in the series."

It has nothing to do with how often it's been done in previous VC titles, it lies in the fact that the game hypes Klaus and Crymaria as being unbeatable. Klaus nearly wiped out the Federation's entire Reserve Army on his own, along with Squad Fnote . Crymaria is repeatedly said to be the strongest known Valkyria in recorded history. She can spontaneously create blizzards and sank two armored battleships.

Yet, despite all the hype and the buildup, the game allows a single shocktrooper to drop both of them in seconds in only one turn. And all it takes is two buffs. How is that not anticlimactic after everything the game tells you about them?

Edited by MiinU
Ngamer01 Since: Oct, 2010
2019-07-20 19:54:33

^ Basically it's because of the Mega Man effect. Every boss in the Mega Man (the action platformer ones) are all dangerous bosses, but once you figure out their tricks and weaknesses, they are a cakewalk. And Mega Man usually goes the route of a Puzzle Boss and can stump players unaware of weaknesses and tricks.

I wouldn't classify the mentioned boss in VC4 as anti-climatic as it looks like some of the bosses are programmed to be Puzzle Bosses instead. Anything to make a boss a cakewalk isn't an example of anti-climatic, but one of its related tropes.

Edited by Ngamer01
Darkaros Since: Jul, 2009
2019-07-20 21:58:53

^^

Ngamer makes a really good point mechanically that I agree with. But you simply can't apply gameplay mechanics to every story boss. Story has to go with story, gameplay has to go with gameplay. What you're saying is simple Gameplay and Story Segregation. If the Valkyria was actually depicted to die to a Shocktrooper in a cutscene, sure that'd fit — but under a story trope like Anti-Climax. Or if the page was rewritten to say like, the entire rest of the game was Nintendo Hard and then this boss is a brainless cakewalk (which it sounds like she isn't, since at least one person thought she was That One Boss even if that trope doesn't fit).

But I literally just listed off two incredibly powerful enemies being trivialized via gameplay mechanics.

This incredibly powerful armored tank that regenerates its armor every round? Just have multiple Badass Normal Lancers hit it for a singular turn and it'll lose its famous armor and be a regular beefy tank.

This other Valkyria who is the head of a massive army, atop a fortress, and has a machine gun-type weapon that rips apart anyone who gets close? Just use a Sniper to shoot her multiple times. It'll work eventually.

Especially that second one. It breaks every story point if it was really that trivial to kill or disable a Valkyria. None of these gameplay choices are reflected in the story. No matter what you do, it's depicted as a titanic struggle of an underdog vs a goliath. On the other hand, the difficulty of the game doesn't really jump if you knew these A-rank mission tactics in the first place. There's no buildup for a climax to be disappointing because either you went in blind and found everything Nintendo Hard, or you frankly breeze through the game anyway. Order Spam makes the entire game easy so there's not a mechanical climax.

Edited by Darkaros
MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2019-07-20 22:37:48

^It's still anticlimactic even in terms of the series' canon.

Until now, it's always taken a Valkyur to defeat the Imperial Army's Valkyur. VC4 is the first time that a Valkyur has been defeated by mere infantry, despite repeatedly being said to be the strongest one in recorded history. None of that has anything to do with gameplay, the cutscene after the battle shows her on her knees while surrounded by the Gallian Army - none of whom were wounded.

So even in that regard, Crymaria doesn't live up to expectations. Belgar (the Imperial's top scientist) outright considers her a failure and has more faith in Nikola and Chiara, both of whom are weaker than Crymaria.

Also, judging from your description, Sylveria still requires repeated shots and luck for the sniper trick to work. With Crymaria, it's guaranteed. Buff the shocktrooper twice, run up to her and open fire and she drops. Klaus' tank? Same deal, same turn.

Edited by MiinU
Ngamer01 Since: Oct, 2010
2019-07-21 10:41:01

Sounds like Anti-Climax Boss needs a run through TRS if examples of using tricks or figuring out Puzzle Boss weaknesses count as anti-climatic. I will mention this though: If it's found tricks/weaknesses count as anti-climatic, we would have to list every boss for every video game as anti-climatic.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2019-07-21 10:50:28

Well, most bosses. But that's some clear Trope Decay. The idea is they're supposed to be really easy on their own. Puzzle Bosses should not overlap with it at all, as that is rather shoehorned in. In addition to that, I agree that this feels like a shoehorn too. The boss isn't actually easy. The gameplay is designed so you can easily min max(for lack of a better quick term) to beat it, but isn't designed to be super easy to beat for the average gamer. Exploiting the game's own unique mechanics is far different from facing a ridiculously weaker boss than they should be. They're implied in-story to be rather strong, but are a pushover. Is the enemy supposed to be strong and still is normally? If so, it isn't an Anti-Climax Boss. And the way you described it makes it sound like they're still challenging if you don't know the ins and outs of the game.

More than likely, it's just... neither one. Not every boss trope fits in a game, after all. Decently challenging bosses are not either of them as is. Some things just aren't notable enough at times.

Edited by Irene Shadow?
MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2019-07-21 11:42:31

^^Crymaria isn't a puzzle boss. There's no "intended" way for you to beat her, the game leaves that up to you. And order stacking is a simple strategy that doesn't require a walkthrough.

She can still be taken down relatively easy without it. All you have to do is get the shocktrooper close enough to fire. It takes a little longer, but it still ends in seconds.

But even if we cast gameplay mechanics aside, she still counts as one in-universe. It's the reason Belgar considers Crymaria to be a failure. He's well aware of the power she has and knows what she should be capable of. The Gallian Army shouldn't be a threat to the Imperials with her on their side, yet she keeps losing to mere infantry.

Imagine Superman being defeated by a group of mall cops (without needing Kryptonite), 'cuz that's what Belgar sees every time Crymaria returns to base to report she's lost. Again. All that power, all that hype and dramatic buildup, for nothing.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2019-07-21 11:54:37

So the plot says she's weak but has potential?

Then she isn't an Anti-Climax Boss to begin with. She has to be built up to be a very strong boss, which she isn't, to apply, and then she has to be super easy to beat in comparison to what the build up suggests(which isn't even the case here either, as so far the description shows she's not a pushover, but there's ways to exploit the system if you want to do so).

Having Potential is meaningless. She'd have to have been built up as a challenge from the start to defeat, and then be very easy as hell(for your average gamer, at least) to beat. She best fits under(without YMMV) Boss Vulnerability in comparison. There might not be a trope(yet) for the type you're talking about, but it's definitely not an Anti-Climax Boss by any means. It fails the basic criteria.

Shadow?
MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2019-07-21 13:36:50

"So the plot says she's weak, but has potential?"

No, the plot repeatedly says she's the strongest Valkyur that ever existed ahd that there's no way she should lose to anyone because of the immense power she has.

I even explained (twice) that she sank two armored battleships and can generate blizzards. So, as far as in-game cutscenes, she's someone to be feared. It's why the Gallian Army shits themselves whenever she appears and immediately goes on the defensive.

Yet, despite having all that power, she still loses.

In past VC games, the Gallian Army has always needed a Valkyur of their own to match the Imperial Army's Valkyria. In VC4, all it takes is regular infantry. That's why Belgar calls her a failure, because it shouldn't be possible for her to lose under any circumstances. The game itself spends most of its main campaign repeatedly building her up as an insurmountable force of nature. And yet, she still loses to ordinary foot soldiers.

If Crymaria was the main threat in an action movie and lost that pitifully, the audience would feel as cheated as Belgar does every time she reports back to him.

Edited by MiinU
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2019-07-21 14:32:48

If the mechanics can be used to exploit a win, instead of her being naturally easy due to things like poor stats, than it's not really a straight case played at all.

She's still possible to be a challenge. She shouldn't even be able to be a challenge at all.

I'll be honest, this sounds like a serious stretch. Besides that, this has gone on too long. There's a Is This An Example thread for cases like this, especially since she barely can fit due to too many factors showing she can be difficult or easy depending how you play. I don't think this trope can be subverted, since it's YMMV, though. I also agree that we need to harden the definition more to prevent shoehorning.

I'm requesting a lock too, please.

Edited by Irene Shadow?
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