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LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
2019-04-27 07:14:06

Honestly, I think all references to the allegations, good or bad, should be deleted from work entries until they are either proved or disproved. Until then, it all seems to be in bad taste and a good source of edit wars and flame bait.

The only exception to me would be having the stuff up on his creator page, but we should be entirely neutral there as well.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
2019-04-27 07:55:28

Agree with ^, though the DBZA example can also be kept as long as it's written neutrally.

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Tomodachi Since: Aug, 2012
2019-04-27 08:02:09

the thing is that the three examples were written neutrally, Marik deleted two, deleted the one in DBSB, I put it back again because he didn't give a reason why it was deleted and then added "false" to the entry. He is on the belief Vic is innocent, which is fine and all but he is deleting the entries without a reason.

He appears to be a nice troper, so I wanted to ask first.

Edited by Tomodachi To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Bisected8 MOD (Primordial Chaos)
2019-04-27 08:33:25

For what it's worth, the allegations are pretty much undeniable (while he's only recently been called to task, it's been more or less an open secret that he shouldn't be left alone with young female fans for years).

Either way, though, editing neutral entries like that is clearly editing with an agenda.

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SailorTardis Since: Jan, 2015
2019-04-28 00:18:07

I think the neutral entries should stay, because as the above troper above says, the allegations are undeniable.

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RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2019-04-28 00:22:13

If they were undeniable, they wouldn't still be called "allegations."

Nothing has been confirmed or denied and Mignogna still maintains his innocence.

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2019-04-28 01:25:13

Me, I am more wondering why we are discussing them at all. A work page does not generally document their actors' and creators' life unless it directly impacts the work.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RoundRobin Since: Jun, 2018
2019-04-28 05:29:38

Innocent until proven guilty, people. Try to remember that.

I say, neutral or no, kill them with fire until he's actually found guilty by a court of law.

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2019-04-28 06:39:46

^^^ I think what they meant was that we can't deny that he's been alleged. Like, whether proven guilty or not, the fact remains that someone claimed he did it.

That's how I understood it, anyway.

DivineFlame100 Since: Mar, 2014
2019-04-28 06:44:46

^ Yes, the allegations themselves are real, but whether or not they're true or false is yet to be confirmed. Until more information is presented, I think they should remain neutral until proven otherwise.

NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2019-04-28 06:55:15

Stating that the allegations exist is neutral, because they do exist.

There was nothing wrong with the entry (necessity aside) until the word "false" was added.

Edited by NubianSatyress
RoundRobin Since: Jun, 2018
2019-04-28 10:01:00

True, but listing the allegations in Vic Mignogn's works and creator page (i.e. fanning the flames) creates a lot of negativity towards him. It prejudices people against him, regardless of his actual guilt or innocence. It stigmatizes him and is akin to ostracization.

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2019-04-28 10:40:58

That's presuming a lot. Simply stating that someone had allegations against them for something doesn't do anything of the sort; tropers have the right and ability to make up their own minds.

The main argument against including the information is, as Septimus said, it's even related to Dragon Ball or if the series suffered any backlash because of it. If not, then we don't need it to be mentioned.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2019-04-28 11:58:55

Yeah, it shouldn't be there at all, regardless of how "true" or not the allegations actually are.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
RoundRobin Since: Jun, 2018
2019-04-28 12:14:45

^^ Is it? Tell me then, what purpose does it serve to list any and all allegations against someone in a work that has nothing to do with any deviant behavior of theirs? At best, it adds nothing of troping value to the work's pages. At worst, it's libel.

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2019-04-28 13:36:20

If someone being alleged of something has an impact on the work in question, then it’s a trope.

It isn’t libel to say a person was alleged of something. “Alleged” does not mean “guilty”. Again, tropers can and will make up their own minds.

RoundRobin Since: Jun, 2018
2019-04-28 13:54:36

I've seen plenty of evidence on people jumping on the 'he's guilty' bandwagon just because they read it somewhere, so we'll have to agree to disagree on the last part.

As for whether the allegations have an impact on the person's work(s)... Isn't that kind of a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy? People say he's guilty, so they stop watching his show(s) and spread the (mis)information to anyone they know, so the show(s) get even lower ratings...

Regardless, as I've mentioned in other ATT threads dealing with similar cases, while I abhor sexual abuse and the people who commit such crimes, it's not our job to hold a court of public opinion.

Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2019-04-28 13:59:21

I think you're both making good points. Should people be able to make up their own minds about something? Absolutely. Do people like to jump to conclusions about allegations and tend to assume they're true? Also yes.

Do these allegations affect the show? Is there evidence that these shows suffered? If not, we shouldn't mention it at all.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CryptidProductions Since: Mar, 2019
2019-04-28 14:00:58

I'm kind of in the same place as Septimus here wondering if it's kosher/relevent to go around editing the page of every single work he's acted in to shoe-horn mentions of the allegations in the first place.

It seems like pure Flamebait and violation of the ROCEJ.

Edited by CryptidProductions
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2019-04-28 14:38:23

^^^ Just because some person somewhere might jump to conclusions doesn’t mean we don’t trope something. Some child somewhere might read examples of Only a Flesh Wound and die trying to emulate it. While unfortunate, that is not something we are responsible for.

If people are jumping on a bandwagon from a neutral statement, then that says more about THEM than us.

While I think ROCEJ should be observed, we can properly trope things in a way that states what happened without picking a side. We aren’t Vic’s bodyguards any more than we’re his judges. We don’t have to broadcast his allegations, but we don’t have to cover them up, either.

Edited by NubianSatyress
RoundRobin Since: Jun, 2018
2019-04-28 15:15:42

If people are jumping on a bandwagon from a neutral statement, then that says more about THEM than us.

I'm 100% with you on that; I just happen to think that the people who do that aren't the minority. Sadly.

And I'm not suggesting that we should cover it up; that's just as bad as broadcasting it. I just think that mentioning these allegations in every single work of his isn't kosher. Mention them on the creator page, if you have to. Posting it everywhere is beginning to look like a smear campaign — however good and noble our intentions might be.

Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2019-04-28 15:21:34

Whether they're the minority or not doesn't matter, either. This isn't about judging the people who think he's guilty any more than judging Vic Mignona himself. Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. Maybe there's proof, maybe there isn't. If the work is affected by the example (which we still haven't determined), then it's fine.

Also, this isn't about "every work". It's about ONE work. If there's other examples that need to be discussed, then we need to do so separately.

shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
2019-04-28 15:34:53

Exactly. IF the work is affected. IF. Until we know for sure the example should stay off the work page.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
2019-04-28 17:11:35

Courtesy quotes of the entries in question, with thoughts in italics:

YMMV.Dragon Ball Super Broly:

  • Harsher in Hindsight:
    • The scene of Broly defending Cheelai from a sexual predator became harder to watch for the English-speaking public after Broly's English voice actor, Vic Mignogna, was caught in multiple false allegations regarding sexual harassment in February 2019.

I would change the last sentence to "...was accused of sexual harassment in February 2019." It's more concise and more neutral in tone.

YMMV.Jojos Bizarre Adventure Diamond Is Unbreakable:

I'd delete this one altogether as shoehorning. According to the FAM trope description, it's "when a scene, joke, or offhand line that was originally meant to be funny or lighthearted becomes cringeworthy due to the unfortunate and/or traumatic events in future installments/episodes of a work or in real life." The entry doesn't describe a "scene, joke, or offhand line," it describes character traits.

YMMV.Dragon Ball Z Abridged:

  • Broly's Villainous Crush on Trunks in the abridged movie can be this after Broly's English dub voice actor Vic Mignogna came under heat in January 2019 for allegations of sexually harassing both female co-workers and fans.

I'm not sure how to tell what trope this was originally under? It says "line 162," but the "click for context" link leads to an unreadable block of text with no line breaks or spaces.

Edited by HighCrate
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2019-04-28 17:59:17

Regardless of where it was, I think that last one is shoehorning.

I’d cut all of them but the first, and go with the suggested edits.

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
2019-04-28 18:42:56

It does seem a little shoehorn-y to bring it up on an entry that is ostensibly about a different version of the character, in a different work, with a different voice actor. The Weasel Words "can be this" don't strengthen the case.

Edited by HighCrate
Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
2019-04-29 09:11:49

DBZA example is shoehorning. I don't know what one has to do with the other. I vote cut for it and the Jo Jo's example, and High Crate's suggested changes on Super Broly.

Tomodachi Since: Aug, 2012
2019-04-29 18:13:10

Understood. I'm glad we had this discussion.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Loekman3 Since: Jul, 2013
2019-05-02 01:30:48

marikthegunslinger deleted the entry again in YMMV.Dragon Ball Super Broly without any explanation whatsoever once again despite the entry being approved by the ATT

miraculous (Apprentice)
2019-05-02 02:17:57

Well now its an Edit War

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Tomodachi Since: Aug, 2012
2019-05-02 06:34:19

The user was called out, and we came to a conclusion that favors him in a way, and he still insists on taking out information without a reason only to further his "I stand with Vic" agenda.

I'm waiting for an order, because I don't want to enter an Edit War and risk getting called out. I refused to contact the user because I don't want to discuss whatever he is innocent or not, and don't care, but I'll sent him a private message to read the discussion here.

Edited by Tomodachi To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2019-05-02 09:16:25

I'd considered a "Deleting YMMV" notifier but it seemed unnecessary since they edit warred over it. That's got its own response above our pay grade.

nombretomado (Season 1)
2019-05-02 09:45:49

They've been suspended for edit warring.

RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2019-05-02 09:53:38

And with that, this discussion has just about run its course.

miraculous (Apprentice)
2019-05-02 10:10:52

Lets just lock up.

We dont really have anything else to do.

Edited by miraculous "That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
2019-05-02 11:08:35

Should the example be added back or should we just leave it?

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miraculous (Apprentice)
2019-05-02 11:19:57

Well lets add it back at least.

We spent an entire thread hashing it out. So it would be weird not to put it back.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
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