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Rules wise it's pretty straightforward. Les Yay is a redirect to Ho Yay, and How to Write an Example says pretty plainly, albeit in regards to potholes "When adding a trope to a work page, always use the trope's correct, unaltered title"
That rule only applies to potholes, sometimes the altered title is correct. However, this particular change is supremely pointless.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
So am I okay for reverting again while linking this query, or should I not bother?
Bumping to be sure if I'm correct in saying Ho Yay is biological sex and gender neutral, and whether I'm okay for reverting the edit or not bothering with it.
Well, I meant that previously on the page the list had a single male pair example listed among the female pairs, so having it all under Ho Yay would be correct if Ho Yay is non-sex-and-gender specific.
So to make things clear I have two questions:
Is Ho Yay non-sex-and-gender specific, as I believe, or is it males only like Ninja123456 insists?
If Ho Yay is non-sex-and-gender specific, am I okay to revert Ninja123456's splitting of the examples into separate Ho Yay and Les Yay listings or should I just leave it?
I see. Since it is multiple gender combos under what is ultimately one trope, then the correct trope title, Ho Yay (which implicitly covers all redirects) would be correct. We don't split out redirect from the main trope page in listing examples.
Okay, then I'll revert the edit and link to this query in the edit reason.
Hey, can you explain further to me why Kobayashi-san has Ho Yay instead of Les Yay? The girls dominate the show and it has more yuri subtext with the yaoi subtext being on only one male/male pairing. Thus it should be Les Yay with Ho Yay being noted once. Also, there are a lot of girls-dominated shows that use Les Yay instead of Ho Yay. If they're allowed, why not Kobayashi? And if you think that's bad, why bother making Les Yay in the first place?
The gist I've gotten is that Les Yay is used when it's only Les Yay. By the same token, Ho Yay is used when it's all men or, as is the case here, when it's a mix of men and women, because it's both the original trope name and gender-neutral. How predominant the female cast otherwise is doesn't matter as that point.
Edited by sgamer82
@sgamer82 That sounds absurd. So Les Yay is a sub-trope of Ho Yay. If Kobayashi were boys-dominated, then Ho Yay is enforced, regardless of gender. But since Kobayashi is the gender-opposite of that, then Ho Yay is preferred instead of Les Yay. See, that's why I asked about why bother making Les Yay. That sounds like yuri is a sub-trope of yaoi. Also, there are certain shows like K-On that are clearly yuri-subtext only but they have Ho Yay tabs to contain them. If TV Tropes doesn't have the time to make Les Yay a separate trope from Ho Yay, then there's no need for it.
Edited by Ninja123456
Can you please stop Single Issue Wonking about this? Does it really matter that we use "Ho Yay" as a catch-all for all homoerotic implications, even if there's girls involved?
OK, everybody stop now. As one of my colleagues said years ago: Normally we use the main trope in lieu of a redirect, but in the case of Ho Yay vs. Les Yay it's not worth of such drama and you can use either.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
That is the exact opposite conclusion that this thread reached. You managed to take "it doesn't matter, so use the official name" to mean "it doesn't matter, so I'm going to do what I want. And also break Example Indentation."
Hell, you're contradicting what you yourself said earlier when you called Les Yay a subtrope of Ho Yay.
To clarify, Ninja just changed the entry to:
- Les Yay: While it's not abundant, there are a few scenes between the female humans and dragons:
- When Kobayashi first saw Tohru transform from dragon into dragon-girl during their first encounter (chapter 32 in the manga; episode 12 in the anime), she was amazed at how big Tohru's boobs were and wanted to fondle them (we'd like to point out that Kobayashi was completely drunk), and Tohru was not against it.
- At one point
, Kobayashi offers to wash Tohru's back and it was not hard at all to convince her. Sure, it ended with Tohru turning into her dragon form and Kobayashi having to use a hose to do this, but the way they interact and the moans of Tohru are anything but subtle.
- Riko gets flustered anytime Kanna touches her. Her reactions leave nothing to imagination.
- Ho Yay: Fafnir's Odd Friendship with Takiya has these undertones as well.
Which, among other things like Zero Context Examples with the next to last bit with Saikawa, violates How to Write an Example's bit about "Do Not Group Tropes under a supertrope header"
Bump. I'd like to fix the guy's entry, but since he's blatantly edit-warring I don't want to get caught up in it. Regardless of the several wiki rules he's managed to break in his readd, it sits rather poorly that "the guy who screeches loudest even if he isn't right wins."
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Re-bump.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
This is actually the second time said troper has edit warred this exact same issue. Suspension issued.
Reverting their change.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
In YMMV.Miss Kobayashis Dragon Maid, Ninja123456 edited the Ho Yay entry, replacing the trope name with Les Yay and violating Example Indentation by adding Ho Yay in front of the sole male example while leaving it in the middle of the list. Due to the bad formatting and because Ho Yay is gender neutral, I deemed the edit pointless and reverted it, stating as such in the edit reason, and sent an example indentation notifier to Ninja123456. They then redid their edit, only without the bad example indentation by splitting off the male example and leaving it under Ho Yay, claiming Ho Yay is for male homosexual subtext in both the edit reason and in a PM mocking the notifier format (with the same title and "Thanks for helping us keep the wiki cool" sentence at the end).
So now I'm asking for some help because I obviously disagree, but don't want to war over it.
Edit: Also, another troper previously changed Ho Yay to Les Yay before on the page, which I reverted, but in that case they told me they didn't notice the male example in the list, so I didn't think I would be edit warring by reverting the edit Ninja123456 made, who obviously did see the male example.
Edited by homogenized