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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2018-07-26 22:45:19

Rules wise it's pretty straightforward. Les Yay is a redirect to Ho Yay, and How to Write an Example says pretty plainly, albeit in regards to potholes "When adding a trope to a work page, always use the trope's correct, unaltered title"

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2018-07-27 01:02:14

That rule only applies to potholes, sometimes the altered title is correct. However, this particular change is supremely pointless.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
homogenized Since: Oct, 2009
2018-07-27 08:33:23

So am I okay for reverting again while linking this query, or should I not bother?

homogenized Since: Oct, 2009
2018-07-30 07:42:00

Bumping to be sure if I'm correct in saying Ho Yay is biological sex and gender neutral, and whether I'm okay for reverting the edit or not bothering with it.

nombretomado (Season 1)
2018-07-30 15:25:41

Les Yay, as it refers to two women, would be fine to use. As Septimus noted above, the preference for the unaltered title is about potholes.

Honestly, either Ho Yay or Les Yay would be fine.

homogenized Since: Oct, 2009
2018-07-30 16:07:33

Well, I meant that previously on the page the list had a single male pair example listed among the female pairs, so having it all under Ho Yay would be correct if Ho Yay is non-sex-and-gender specific.

So to make things clear I have two questions:

Is Ho Yay non-sex-and-gender specific, as I believe, or is it males only like Ninja123456 insists?

If Ho Yay is non-sex-and-gender specific, am I okay to revert Ninja123456's splitting of the examples into separate Ho Yay and Les Yay listings or should I just leave it?

nombretomado (Season 1)
2018-07-30 16:11:03

I see. Since it is multiple gender combos under what is ultimately one trope, then the correct trope title, Ho Yay (which implicitly covers all redirects) would be correct. We don't split out redirect from the main trope page in listing examples.

homogenized Since: Oct, 2009
2018-07-31 10:31:31

Okay, then I'll revert the edit and link to this query in the edit reason.

Ninja123456 Since: Jan, 2011
2018-08-14 09:55:08

Hey, can you explain further to me why Kobayashi-san has Ho Yay instead of Les Yay? The girls dominate the show and it has more yuri subtext with the yaoi subtext being on only one male/male pairing. Thus it should be Les Yay with Ho Yay being noted once. Also, there are a lot of girls-dominated shows that use Les Yay instead of Ho Yay. If they're allowed, why not Kobayashi? And if you think that's bad, why bother making Les Yay in the first place?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2018-08-14 10:12:31

The gist I've gotten is that Les Yay is used when it's only Les Yay. By the same token, Ho Yay is used when it's all men or, as is the case here, when it's a mix of men and women, because it's both the original trope name and gender-neutral. How predominant the female cast otherwise is doesn't matter as that point.

Edited by sgamer82
homogenized Since: Oct, 2009
2018-08-14 10:31:56

@Ninja123456

No one said Les Yay is bad, you're just using Les Yay and Ho Yay incorrectly.

Edited by homogenized
Ninja123456 Since: Jan, 2011
2018-08-14 18:09:17

@sgamer82 That sounds absurd. So Les Yay is a sub-trope of Ho Yay. If Kobayashi were boys-dominated, then Ho Yay is enforced, regardless of gender. But since Kobayashi is the gender-opposite of that, then Ho Yay is preferred instead of Les Yay. See, that's why I asked about why bother making Les Yay. That sounds like yuri is a sub-trope of yaoi. Also, there are certain shows like K-On that are clearly yuri-subtext only but they have Ho Yay tabs to contain them. If TV Tropes doesn't have the time to make Les Yay a separate trope from Ho Yay, then there's no need for it.

Edited by Ninja123456
MegaMarioMan (Ten years in the joint)
2018-08-14 23:44:45

Can you please stop Single Issue Wonking about this? Does it really matter that we use "Ho Yay" as a catch-all for all homoerotic implications, even if there's girls involved?

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2018-08-15 01:12:18

OK, everybody stop now. As one of my colleagues said years ago: Normally we use the main trope in lieu of a redirect, but in the case of Ho Yay vs. Les Yay it's not worth of such drama and you can use either.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ninja123456 Since: Jan, 2011
2018-08-15 05:34:47

With that said, I hope you guys don't mind I bring back Les Yay to Kobayashi YMMV while giving Ho Yay a little note. Sounds like Les Yay is important after all. Thanks, Septimus.

Edited by Ninja123456
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2018-08-15 05:51:23

That is the exact opposite conclusion that this thread reached. You managed to take "it doesn't matter, so use the official name" to mean "it doesn't matter, so I'm going to do what I want. And also break Example Indentation."

Hell, you're contradicting what you yourself said earlier when you called Les Yay a subtrope of Ho Yay.

To clarify, Ninja just changed the entry to:

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2018-08-15 08:10:41

Which, among other things like Zero Context Examples with the next to last bit with Saikawa, violates How to Write an Example's bit about "Do Not Group Tropes under a supertrope header"

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2018-08-16 06:08:51

Bump. I'd like to fix the guy's entry, but since he's blatantly edit-warring I don't want to get caught up in it. Regardless of the several wiki rules he's managed to break in his readd, it sits rather poorly that "the guy who screeches loudest even if he isn't right wins."

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2018-08-17 07:45:31

Re-bump.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
nombretomado (Season 1)
2018-08-18 11:31:11

This is actually the second time said troper has edit warred this exact same issue. Suspension issued.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2018-08-18 12:16:42

Reverting their change.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
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