Ask The Tropers

It sounds like thinly veiled complaining, and the MCU comparison is apples to oranges.

I'll also note that Chasem seems to have spread this general message across the various Star Wars pages.

The idea that including more female characters is "an anvilicious social justice message" is setting off Very Loud Alarm Bells in my mind.

I was just about to bring that up. I agree that it could use some serious condensing, and accusing Kennedy of having an agenda as opposed to just preachy but incompetent (it's not like the other Star Wars movies haven't also had political themes) is a stretch. Also mentioning the MCU is really unnecessary.

Nice Wall of Text. Should that be zapped, or trimmed.

Either zap it or trim it. Chasem also added a Dork Age entry in fillm for The last jedi and the movie has too many opions too count as that.

Cutting it back would be the first step. I'll investigate another thing about this troper, wait...

It does look like thinly-veiled complaining to me. I can't make sense of half of it in context of Franchise Original Sin.

• "too much on the feminist aspect" — By giving more focus to Rey's development? By introducing more female characters? (Oh no, there's too many now!)
• "main purpose were to add diversity and progressiveness" — I see this stated as fact. Did someone involved with the production say something that suggested this was the only reason for adding those characters, or is it just what some people think the reasoning is?
• "nail-on-head nature of the movie's social justice themes" — What social justice themes became anvilicious? Again, specificity would go a long way here. It's not like there was a subplot involving droids' rights or gender inequity among the rebellion. Otherwise, it indeed sets off Very Loud Alarm Bells.
• "only drove more nails into the coffin" — Hardly. Even if it technically underperformed, the new Star Wars trilogy and related material isn't going away any time soon.

I've trimmed it down to this:

• Franchise Original Sin: The Force Awakens introduced the first female lead in a Star Wars film; while this was a highly praised move by many fans. Rey was widely beloved for being a strong, badass and lovable female protagonist in a franchise that had relied on the White Male Lead trope for years, ended up moving a ton of merchandise,^note much of which suffered from low supply and high demand and broke the Girl-Show Ghetto. Owing to Rey's popularity, The Last Jedi went further in its feminist messages and themes, and introduced characters such as Rose or Holdo, who came across as less organic than Rey's role in TFA. While it was a given that such a move would upset Rey's previous haters, Rose and Holdo were very polarizing with fans. TLJ ended up performing somewhat below expectations (even if it was still a success) and merchandise sales went way down.

I still say it ought to be cut outright, at least unless someone can answer mahidevrans.

I agree it should be cut . How does more female characters equal feminist?

From the trope page... "A Franchise Original Sin is a flaw that in earlier, good installments was kept under control to the point of not really being a flaw, but goes out of hand and becomes apparent in later installments. "

Since TFA is the 7th installment of the series out of a current 9, something introduced in it can't count as a Franchise Original Sin. That whole entry is just shoehorning.

Tossing suspensions at them; we'll see what they have to say in Edit Banned.

Also, even if it being the first of a trilogy makes it an "original", we're only one more work in. Hardly enough to identify a genuine pattern here.

The example was zapped completely.

To be fair, it is a new 'trilogy' orchestrated by different people. You're correct that it wasn't always part of the 'franchise,' however.

The entry seemed uncertain as to what the 'original sin' was. It mentions a female main character, however this need not imply feminism. It seems like the target was the agenda behind this character, however it was not clear if that was the 'original sin.' Something like, "Rey was made powerful, and this seemed refreshing. However, this might have become exaggerated over further instalments," is probably the closest to making sense of the entry in terms of the trope.

I zapped it because, while the formatting and idea is valid, the validity of the "sin" (How are the themes more "nail-on-head" than prior works? The sin centers on SJW, an ROCEJ red flag.) remains contested. It looked like most of this tread wanted to cut it. Should I add it back until we reach a verdict.

Hows this?

• The Force Awakens introduced the first female lead in a Star Wars film; Rey was widely beloved for being a strong, badass and lovable female protagonist in a franchise that had relied on the White Male Lead trope for years, broke the Girl-Show Ghetto, and only raised the ire of a Vocal Minority. The Last Jedi went further, introducing characters such as Rose or Holdo whose main purpose were to add diversity and progressiveness to the movie, but came across as less organic than Rey's role. Their and the movie's controversial receptions was the tipping point for those feeling the push to diversity was coming at the expense of good storytelling.

Should I wait to add back until we agree if the "sin" is valid?

Yeah man, hold off on adding it, thread looks like its leaning to cut it. The whole example just feels like importing dumb drama.

I kinda think this needs to be cut all together as Im not sure it fits the definition at all and it comes off as this troper trying to complain.

@zeroflyingwhatever — the most sensible argument I could possibly draw was that because Rey was largely embraced as a heroine in TFA — showing the audience was eager for more prominent SW women — new female characters were introduced in TLJ, but less successfully integrated, developed, or utilized. Which I'm not sure fits the trope definition, but it certainly drives home how unclear the point of the original paragraph is.

To me, it all seems straightforward: It can't be a Franchise Original Sin for the simple reason that it's not original. The Sin occurred on the seventh movie of the franchise and, as mentioned, even counting the new trilogy as a franchise unto itself doesn't matter unless it becomes way too apparent in The Last Jedi or the last movie.

Fighteer, allow me to add that Chasem has a SERIOUS case of Single-Issue Wonk on the various YMMV.Dragon Ball pages. He makes DOZENS of edits about the same subject (sub vs dub) every day, usually gushing about the quality of the later dubs.

^ Chasem was a ban-evader. Someone probably should revert those pages.

I removed their entry for The Last Jedi on the Dork Age page, at least.