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WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2018-02-16 09:11:45

Word on the street is that it does not have a "progressive message," btw.

Anyway, coutresty links: YMMV.Black Panther 2018, history page of YMMV/ page.

I asked here almost a week ago about whether this was He Panned It Now He Sucks rather than 8.8 or something else like Sacred Cow (which I don't think it is).

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 09:17:45

From what I understand, the film blames European colonialism as being the Freudian Excuse for its Big Bad. That can be construed as pretty progressive, especially in relation to hard-right opinion.

I personally don't find any fault with your 8.8 write up btw. My objection is with the current writeup of Sacred Cow, which hides behind an argument akin to "if you're defending this movie, then you're just trying to protect Black people from criticism". Sacred Cow relies upon the idea that "fair criticism of this work is impossible because fans are too rabid", which is extremely hard to apply to Black Panther since groups have been outright CAUGHT trying to sabotage reviews and review scores for the movie simply because it stars minorities.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2018-02-16 09:21:47

... are we ignoring the fact that a troper named freaking "Kaizerreich" is repeatedly breaking several rules (edit-warring, Unfortunate Implications require citations, ROCEJ) in order to further a statement that at the most kindest is "regressive" if not outright racist? That... is not the handle of someone deserving the benefit of the doubt who's breaking several rules to be kinda racist.

Aside from the fact it's misuse of a trope (this is definitely 8.8, not Sacred Cow. It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay premature for Sacred Cow), I see no evidence that this is actually true.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 09:24:08

I've had several run-ins with Kaizerreich in the past, particularly on politically-divisive pages like the now-defunct Sargon Of Akkad page, Thunderf00t, and a few others that escape my memory.

Edited by NubianSatyress
WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2018-02-16 09:30:22

I haven't seen the film so I can only go off what I've heard, read, and seen, which is that there's a decent nationalist / isolationist message to the movie. I personally don't care either way and it isn't the most important part of this report, so we can drop it or take it to PM's if you'd like.

EDITED to make a correction:

There have been two mediocre reviews for the film on Rotten Tomatoes and people have over-reacted to them. Some journalists have gone so far as to say that those reviewers are closed-minded and that the reviews are "negative" (despite the 3/5 ratings). The mediocre reviews could be called "fair critiques."

I originally agreed with you that Sacred Cow doesn't apply here, but the description says this trope concerns anyone — fans, casual fans, and even "non-fans with passing knowledge of the work." Moreover, the page says that a fair critique "will be met with the same revulsion as Squick-inducing shipping or trolling," which is an accurate thing to say about the two middling reviews.

Edited by WaterBlap Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2018-02-16 09:34:20

Oh cool. A "Sexism is gone in America and Feminism is a "Female Supremacy Movement" edit. Admittedly, they're saying it's "perceived" as such, but their intentions are clear.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 09:50:56

Why would we need to take anything to P Ms? I'm not arguing with you or against you. I'm debating the relevance of the tropes.

We can't determine how "fair" a review is based solely on a number score. In a vacuum, 3/5 might sound like a decent rating to give a film, but that depends on what arguments the review makes to justify it.

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that 3/5 was automatically bad, either. Merely that we can't declare that A) a review is automatically reasonable just because it's written in articulate and neutral tone of voice and a mediocre rating, and B) that anyone who has grievance with a review, regardless of score, is automatically being unreasonable or giving a gut reaction akin to Squick.

Edited by NubianSatyress
WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2018-02-16 10:29:35

To address your question, it's because that's the norm for off-topic discussions. That's literally the only reason I said that we could take it to PM's. There's literally no heat / anger coming your way from me about it.

I'm not basing that solely off of a number score. Look at the two reviews. They are more or less fair and the responses to those (especially the two I linked to in my suggested edit for 8.8) are not particularly reasonable. Complaining, for example, about a reviewer caring about the lack of action in a superhero action movie is pretty unreasonable, and calling a reviewer closed-minded because there's disagreement concerning what makes a good movie is also unreasonable.

Also, my above point was not about the equivalent revulsion as with squick but as with trolling. Around the Internet and in this very thread, people have equated less-than-positive reviews with trolling because there have been trolling campaigns caught red-handed.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 10:47:33

Again, I don't see how this is off-topic at all, given that the accuracy of the Sacred Cow entry is (along with the actions of the editor) what's being discussed.

On that last point, you mean me, because I'm the one who said that. But I think you're missing the point. It isn't equating any review with trolling, it's acknowledging the existence of a coordinated movement to disguise trolling as "reasonable reviews". In essence, it provides proof positive that a very thorough lens needs to be placed at any action surrounding the film, whether it be a positive one or a negative one. In short, it's not paranoia when people are actually out to get you.

As for the reviews in question, which ones in particular are you referring to and what arguments in specific are you referring to? There's a LOT of reviews on that page, and I counted a LOT that had a score of 3.5/5 or a 7/10 or less. I do not have time to read them all, nor should I have to. If you're making the claim that people are having an unreasonable response to reasonable reviews, then it would help to point us to what parties are doing both. Which reviews? Who are the people reacting? Again, complaining about "lack of action" or saying a reviewer is "closed-minded" doesn't mean anything without context.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2018-02-16 10:48:06

My issue with Sacred Cow is that A: It was clearly added in bad faith, breaking at least three different rules (by someone who has been around long enough to know better) and would need a complete rewrite, B: There's limited proof it's nearly a widespread enough opinion to qualify, especially since the movie came out today, and C: There's an existing YMMV item that actually does fit this perfectly.

Water Blap, having checked out your proposed writeup for 8.8, I say go ahead and add that, and in the process remove He Panned It Now He Sucks since that should be going on the critic's page, not the work's.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 10:49:22

Yes, thank you. The "bad faith" element is exactly what I was getting at.

Sometimes I get a little wordy.

worldofdrakan Since: Jul, 2016
2018-02-16 13:17:48

With this and their edit to So What Do We Do Now? in mind, this is looking a lot like a case of editing with an agenda.

WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2018-02-16 14:23:20

So this is a long reply but we're having communication troubles so I'm using the quoteblock markup to hopefully make things a bit clearer as to what I'm responding to.

Again, I don't see how this is off-topic at all, given that the accuracy of the Sacred Cow entry is
I was talking specifically about the discussion about the message of the movie, which is off topic to the issue at hand.

I think you're missing the point. It isn't equating any review with trolling, it's acknowledging the existence of a coordinated movement to disguise trolling as "reasonable reviews".
No, I mean you and other people around the Internet. Which is what I said.

With the quoted sentence here you just equated the two reasonable reviews with trolling. You defeated your own point. By blindly claiming that any reasonable review is part of a vast conspiracy of trolling, you are equating the reasonable reviews with trolling. You are providing more proof that this film is some sort of Sacred Cow, actually. And I say that having agreed with you at first about it not being a Sacred Cow.

As for the reviews in question, which ones in particular are you referring to and what arguments in specific are you referring to?
On 10 February, there were only two such reviews. Those are the ones I'm talking about. The claim that you don't have time to read one or two reviews is a little bit much. If you want to make a claim about any of the reviews, you do actually need to look at them first, lol.

Which reviews? Who are the people reacting?
I don't understand your confusion. You said you read this comment and even said you don't have a problem with it. If you did read the write-up then you are aware of exactly what reviews and exactly what reactions I am talking about.

RE: Larkmarn:

  • A: I agree that the specific write-up for Sacred Cow that was brought to ATT should be replaced. It was obviously added in bad faith, but I think my write-up for the 8.8 example would probably be more fitting as Sacred Cow, with some tweaking.
  • B: The description of Sacred Cow says that there are no time restrictions. It literally says "any point in time."
  • C: Which item and is that particular entry misuse or not.
  • I want to make sure it's actually 8.8 and not Sacred Cow.

Also, I agree that this person is demonstrating agenda-based editing.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 14:48:18

With the quoted sentence here you just equated the two reasonable reviews with trolling. You defeated your own point. By blindly claiming that any reasonable review is part of a vast conspiracy of trolling, you are equating the reasonable reviews with trolling. You are providing more proof that this film is some sort of Sacred Cow, actually. And I say that having agreed with you at first about it not being a Sacred Cow.

I did no such thing. I said that, with the existence of an organized attempt at trolling the movie's reviews, every review should be given more scrutiny. That does NOT mean the reviews in question are trolling, nor that "any reasonable review" is itself part of the trolling. But, am I saying it could be? Absolutely. Arguing that any review could be a problem is not saying that every review is a problem.

Please don't make an insistence that my disagreement with your argument somehow proves your argument. That's just unbelievably rude.

On 10 February, there were only two such reviews. Those are the ones I'm talking about. The claim that you don't have time to read one or two reviews is a little bit much. If you want to make a claim about any of the reviews, you do actually need to look at them first, lol.

No, I legitimately didn't know which reviews you were referring to. I just didn't know you were specifically talking about the two in your 8.8 writeup. I didn't piece that together.

Now that I see it, though...meh. For one thing, it's no longer February 10th, these are no longer the only two "negative" reviews, and those articles were basically knee-jerk clickbait. With almost a week now having passed, my thought is that the immediate reactions that SOME fans had to the first-ever negative review of the movie definitely qualifies as a case of 8.8. However, I don't remain convinced that it's a case of Sacred Cow yet. Yet. Googling "Black Panther negative reviews" today, it looks like there's been no new outrage on that front since Feb 10thnote , which again gives me the distinct impression that the first case was just knee-jerk "outrage news".

I'd like to see how people react to other critical reviews first.

Edited by NubianSatyress
AndyYagami Since: Jan, 2015
2018-02-16 15:12:04

When you have people tweeting things like "If you give this a bad review, you're racist" and "white people shouldn't review this movie because they might give it bad reviews" makes this 100% an example of Sacred Cow. Just more of a racially charged version than say, Bob Chipman's review of Breath of the Wild.

NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 15:19:25

Well I mean, we also currently have people making fake tweets about having been assaulted by black people during the premiere.

Everything about this movie right now, especially tweets and other social media posts, are currently suspect.

lakingsif Since: Dec, 2012
2018-02-16 15:23:46

If it is that much of a divisive issue, perhaps the pages should be locked for a few weeks?

OH MY GOD; MY PARENTS ARE GARDENIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!!
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2018-02-16 15:25:40

I personally wouldn't object to that.

AndyYagami Since: Jan, 2015
2018-02-16 15:34:28

I'd say do it. It's gonna be a shitshow on both sides. And that'll give ratings a bit of time to normalize.

AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013
2018-02-16 17:13:52

I also vouch for locking the page until it's stabilized.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V The Phantom Pain
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010
2018-02-16 22:09:59

Personally, I have to ask if it's a bit of a mistake to focus too much on this specific issue as opposed to the apparent pattern of this behavior on the part of Kaizerreich. The name has definitely come up on ATT before, and like Larkmarn said, the handle is kind of suspicious in context.

Edited by nrjxll
2018-02-17 01:45:47

Guy's been the subject of almost one query a year since 2013. There's gotta be some kind of achievement for that.

And is Kaizerreich a racist slur or something?

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013
2018-02-17 03:25:59

"Kaizerreich" is not an explicit slur, nor racial, but it has certain vibes. It's a misspelled name for Imperial Germany - "Kaiser" means "emperor" and "Reich" means "realm" or "state". And, of course, the Nazis called their empire "das Reich" (without any Kaiser).

WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2018-02-17 09:23:05

I think we could continue the discussion of the trope on the discussion page. The write up is report worthy but the trope may be applicable despite that.

For the sake of the report, I mean.

I think this kaizerreich guy will be getting a suspension for edit warring either way...

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
nombretomado (Season 1)
2018-02-17 14:25:09

YMMV.Black Panther 2018 has been locke,d and Kaizerreich has been called in for a chat.

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