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smallinquiry Since: Jul, 2016
2017-05-04 13:26:32

I do not understand why this needs to go to ask the tropers. Yesterday we had a civil discussion to which we mutually disagreed on certain topics and left it at that. If I appear as a single issue wonk I apologize. I created this profile because I though I saw numerous examples of overt bias and the occasional flame bait. I have not since touched her A Nazi by Any Other Name trope aside from the first time which I believe would not constitute as edit warring. The consensus she is referring to from askthetropers is one person agreeing with her and another largely staying neutral towards the idea. I simply thought since that trope is not widely believed among the fan base it could be removed and replaced with a better more objective one such as Absolute Xenophobe. The description she has given of my argument is inaccurate and I would be more than happy for a mod to overlook our personal messages although I would prefer if we could just begin a discussion page on Fallout 4 factions and see if this trope is deserving. Yes I did remove a change she put in today from another editor because there was nothing wrong with the editors original contribution. Just so this doesn't look as one sided as she purports I will point out she too has changed some of my edits. Personally I believe the changes she has made lack objectivity.

Lastly I would just point out that a couple other tropers have been having issues with Nubian Satyress due to similar reasons.

Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2017-05-04 15:19:04

Well, you're editing with an agenda and verrrry close to edit-warring, both of which you don't do on this site.

On this site, if you have a conflict with a troper and you can't resolve it, you ask for intervention- which is what NS is doing by posting here. No amount of 'other people have problems with them too' supersedes that.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2017-05-04 15:53:08

Because neither of you provided a link to the other ATT thread, I went searching. Found this ATT thread concerning Nubian Satyress and the Fallout 4 page, which imo demonstrates a history of problems for this issue.

Were you, Satyress, talking about this ATT thread because that's just one person agreeing with you. That's not a consensus.

I find it suspicious that you characterize someone's argument the way you did ("Yes, the Brotherhood [has characteristics of Nazis]... but I agree with their reasons, so that doesn't make them Nazis."). That seems to be sophistry.

That said, I also don't trust people de-biasing articles.

Should the page be locked or do y'all think it isn't that bad?

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2017-05-04 17:20:58

Water Blap, to answer your first question, I asked smallinquiry multiple times to make another Ask The Tropers if they disagreed with my opinion. As well, I'm not aware of any bare minimum requirement for ATT, but even if a topic I was indifferent to was settled here with only the OP and one other troper agreeing, I would still tell anyone who edited it after to bring it back to ATT.

That being said, when in our conversation the question came up if the Brotherhood is hostile toward all Mutants/Ghouls or only dangerous ones, I eventually pointed out that Maxson says he wants to destroy Super Mutants "in all their forms" (exact words). inquiry's answer was "why does that matter? all the ones Maxson has encountered are always chaotic evil"?

That was what made me give up on the conversation, because it was 1) a blatant Moving the Goalposts in my eyes and b) an endorsement (or, at best. passive arm-shrugging) of racial genocide if someone BELIEVES all members of a race are evil based on past experience.

The entire debate, however, was starting to devolve into semantics, minutiae, and cherry-picking, such as whether or not a statement of "we'll have these merchants eating out if the palms of our hands" is an admission of manipulation or not. And eventually, the argument was turning into "Yes, they're militaristic. Yes, they're racist. Yes, they admit Maxson "rules supreme". Yes, they advocate racial purity. Yes, a member talks about racial cleansing, another celebrates using civilians as cannon fodder, and another one takes food from farmers, but that doesn't make them Nazis."

I saw no indication that any point I made would convince inquiry that the Brotherhood are fascist because it seemed like, to him, each of those things were just trees and there was no forest. And I personally would never UNSEE the forest. So at that point, I saw no further purpose in discussion.

Edited by NubianSatyress
smallinquiry Since: Jul, 2016
2017-05-04 18:56:56

Water Blap-

I really don' think the page needs to be locked as everything thus far has been very by the book and civil. To summarize:

Nubian made a trope on that page. I disagreed with the edit and replaced it with a trope I felt was objective. Nubian reinserted her trope. I did not edit war her trope and remove it; rather I messaged her so we could talk some more. We engaged in discourse for a very long time but to no avail. I continued to respect the existence of her reposted trope. She proceeded to edit multiple of my edits. I saw her edit another tropers work but I disagreed so I reposted the other tropers work. Nubian proceeded to go on askthetropers and here we are.

So I think what really needs to happen is we start a discussion on the fallout 4 faction thread at some point about the nature of this trope and whether or not the fallout community agrees or disagrees if it applies. Unfortunately I have finals tomorrow so this will be my last post for tonight, but please anyone let me know if you think this is an appropriate follow up.

And okay yes I agree with you Candi about the usefulness of this page I just thought a discussion on the faction page could have been done first and indeed I have been asking other tropers since the P Ms with Nubian about whether a discussion page is a good idea or whether I'm just way off the mark.

NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2017-05-04 19:37:09

The problem with "asking the Fallout community" is that the Brotherhood has a lot of fans and a lot of haters. They are ripe for both Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater territory. I've looked over the internet for a lot of opinions on the Brotherhood of Steel, and the question of "are they fascists/Nazis" eventually turns into accusations of Godwin's Law or "the word Nazi is too strong and too overused" (a statement you yourself made in your talks).

Again, I'm fairly of the mind that when your faction follows a charismatic leader whose power is or borders on absolute and slathers every speech with hatred for specific minority groups, uses military force to achieve racial genocide under the tenets of security, purity and ethnic cleansing, and forcibly confiscates civilian infrastructure to support a militarized state, the accusations of Nazism are neither Godwin's Law nor misused. But, that's just me.

Again, if ATT decides I'm the crazy one, I'll forget the issue.

Edited by NubianSatyress
pokedude10 Since: Oct, 2010
2017-05-04 20:05:36

Nubian, we don't think either side is crazy. Now that both of you are here, the point is to actually discuss the issue rather than summarize previous discussions.

I lean towards whatever is the least controversial. No matter how we look at it, "Nazi" is a loaded term, especially given the current world climate. If the Nazi-ness of the Brotherhood is controversial within the fandom, then it might not be wise to lean one way or the other on the main work page. We don't want to attract controversy.

Edited by pokedude10
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2017-05-04 20:36:43

Well, I mean that's basically true for every single argument about fascism right now. I know the wiki doesn't like conflict, but you absolutely CANNOT make comparisons to to Nazis on the internet for almost any fictional group without complaint. I understand the desire to avoid controversy, but you're talking about an internet climate where people argue over "Roman Salute".

That said, I will recuse myself from further debate, unless directly asked questions, because my opinion has been expressed.

Edited by NubianSatyress
WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2017-05-04 20:41:00

I don't know if either of you are right because (a) you are both clearly fans of this series and so have energy invested into this and (b) I am not a fan of this series and so do not know the whole situation with this character or this faction. Just wanted to say that first because I'm looking at this from I guess a third perspective. I have some questions: A, B, C, and D.

I'm not suggesting the Brotherhood is or is not applicable to ANBAON, but I am trying to move the discussion along since both you seem to be in agreement that you are deadlocked. If these are better to ask in the page's discussion section rather than ATT, we can all trek on over there. Right now, I agree that this topic might just be too controversial within the fandom to ever bother with, idk.

Looking at the example on A Nazi by Any Other Name, I have to ask about (A) whether the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 tries to kill everyone different than them or only this one group of people. The quotes I'm seeing in the ANBAON entry all apply to the synths. While I see the racism metaphor, I don't see the Nazism metaphor.

The Nazis categorized all people into a hierarchy with particular people at the top and particular people at the bottom, and everyone was included in this, for lack of a better term right now, in this "hate ladder." But at least in this picture, there is not just one ethnicity in the Brotherhood, so I have to ask further about (B) whether there is such a "hate ladder" in the Brotherhood.

Also, this hierarchy did not just apply to ethnicities; sexuality, twin-ness, and disorders were also factors in the Nazis' idea of personhood. Thus, I have to ask (C) if the only connection to Nazism is the metaphor concerning ethnicity and racism.

Further, if 100% of, say, bears are aggressive and try to kill you every time you encounter one, you will reasonably conclude that bears are dangerous. If Maxson has only ever encountered aggressive, murderous Super Mutants and never any sane, non-murderous mutants, then it is reasonable to say that Maxson honestly believes mutants to be "naturally" aggressive (so to speak). Thus, I also have to ask (D) whether the player is ever shown or if it's ever suggested that Maxson has ever encountered an obviously not-dangerous mutant.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2017-05-04 21:58:47

"The quotes I'm seeing in the ANBAON entry all apply to the synths."

As I said, their members, including their leader Maxson, have a doctrine of "human purity". Maxson tells you directly that he wants to kill all Super Mutants "in all their forms". There are allusions to hatred toward Ghouls as well that for the moment seem mostly directed at feral (basically zombie) Ghouls, but bringing a Ghoul companion to the Brotherhood base is met with racist comments and disgust.


"The Nazis categorized all people into a hierarchy with particular people at the top and particular people at the bottom, and everyone was included in this, for lack of a better term right now, in this "hate ladder.""

The Brotherhood are a human-first organization and the chapter in question does not allow non-human members (other chapters throughout the country do, but those chapters are almost completely different). Beyond that, they clearly see Synths as their #1 target, Super Mutants as #2, Feral Ghouls not far behind, and then all other non-humans are reluctantly tolerated for the moment.


"Also, this hierarchy did not just apply to ethnicities; sexuality, twin-ness, and disorders were also factors in the Nazis' idea of personhood. Thus, I have to ask (C) if the only connection to Nazism is the metaphor concerning ethnicity and racism."

At this point, this seems to be going too far into turning the trope from "these characters are an allegory to Nazis" and turning it into "these are copy-pasted Nazis right down to the Hitler stache". The criteria I've given alone fit the description of the trope, in my estimation, and seems to align with most examples on the page. Let us go by the criteria on the page:

- Common elements include a black- or brown-uniformed paramilitary political force. — Check.

- With simple geometric emblems on their arms. — It's on their chest, so I'll be generous and say no check.

- Centering on one person as the supreme leader heavily. "Maxson reigns supreme." — Check.

- Guarded by his black shirted longcoat-wearing minions. — Again, Paladins in suits of armor, so generously no check.

- Their ideology typically consists of the leader constantly shrieking, "We are the Master Race/Species! We will reign supreme!" — Check.

- "We will crush all who oppose us! All inferiors shall submit or/and die!" — Check.

- "Hail Victory!" — "Ad Victorium". Check.

- To that end, they will commit the most hideous of crimes in a heartbeat. — Genocide, seizing food that may starve civilians, applauding use of civilians as cannon fodder, actively seeking out Synth, Ghoul and Mutant specimens for experiments, gloating about what basically amounts to extorting merchants into trading. Check.

- And the only thing that will get them to stop is unyielding force. — The only means the player has of getting rid of them is blowing their airship out of the sky. Check.


"Further, if 100% of, say, bears are aggressive and try to kill you every time you encounter one, you will reasonably conclude that bears are dangerous. If Maxson has only ever encountered aggressive, murderous Super Mutants and never any sane, non-murderous mutants, then it is reasonable to say that Maxson honestly believes mutants to be "naturally" aggressive (so to speak). Thus, I also have to ask (D) whether the player is ever shown or if it's ever suggested that Maxson has ever encountered an obviously not-dangerous mutant."

We don't know what Maxson has or hasn't encountered. Super Mutants are generally hostile, but it's not especially rare to come across ones who want to talk or be left alone. It's not impossible that Maxson has never seen a non-hostile Mutant, but it's improbable that NO ONE in the BOS has. Further, Maxson makes it clear that he just flat out hates the idea that Mutants exist and plans to wipe every single one out. I'll note that he doesn't say this with military precision or indifference; he makes it VERY clear that he has utter contempt for them as a species.

And beyond that, I'll once again say that I'm opposed to the very suggestion of "this guy never met a good X, so killing all X is a justifiable act". That's been a Discredited Trope for a long time now, for very good reason and it's a Discredited Trope within the Fallout series itself, as (to my recollection)_ every single faction that wished to wholesale slaughter Mutants in previous games were villainous.l There is zero reason to believe that, if Maxson came to find a non-hostile Super Mutant, he would be averse to killing it. Again, he makes it clear he wants them all dead on principle. As a semi-related note, when he learns that one of his best Paladins is a Synth, Maxson shows no hestitation about ordering his execution and, even when Danse pleads for his life and states that he's done everything he can for the Brotherhood, even risked his life on numerous occasions, Maxson does not budge an inch in his contempt.

Edited by NubianSatyress
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2017-05-05 08:08:36

Alright, folks, these historical parallel comparisons have to stop. The Brotherhood of Steel are not Nazis. You are vastly overreaching, Nubian. And that is the word of mod. You were warned about this kind of editorializing the last time the topic came up, and told that we'd have to ban you if it happened again. Well... give us a good reason not to.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NubianSatyress Since: Mar, 2016
2017-05-05 08:10:47

Wait, what? I don't recall any such warning.

Aside edit: I'll follow word of mod, but the decision without any counterargument to the points above is very disappointing.

Edited by NubianSatyress
WaterBlap Since: May, 2014
2017-05-05 08:25:42

I was not saying that all of the answers to my questions needed to be fulfilled, nor was I suggesting changes to the trope. The two of you are just really invested and seem to be forcing your views onto the issue, so I went about the question from a different angle. Also (still Sincerity Mode but emphasis markup), I never said that this fictional character was justified in his fictional "acts," but rather I was trying to understand this fictional character's motivations. I am very surprised you cannot see the difference between justifying someone's actions and trying to understand that person's motivations.

Anyway, to respond to your response: you're saying that (a) yes to Nazi allegory, (b) yes to Nazi allegory, (c) refused to answer and changed the subject so I'm guessing that this particular element of a Nazi allegory is missing, and (d) a reasonable yes to Nazi allegory. I'm starting to agree with you, but personally I'd rather both sides get a chance to explain, for what my opinion is worth.

On the trope page, those nine checkmarks you considered are actually just six. I'm pointing this out because 7/9 is larger than 4/6 percentage-wise. The characteristics (from the paragraph you used) are: (1) Putting on the Reich is in play, (2) there's one person as the supreme leader, (3) supreme leader is guarded by Black Shirts, (4) their ideology is consistent with The Social Darwinist, (5) "they will commit the most hideous of crimes in a heartbeat," and (6) "the only thing that will get them to stop is unyielding force."

It looks like 1, 2, 4, and 5 all apply. You, Satyress, already said that 3 does not apply, and from what's been said, I agree. I don't think 6 necessarily applies based off of what you've said, but there is still a majority of the other characteristics applying anyway.

As I said, I'm starting to think that ANBAON does apply, but I'd like to hear Small Inquiry out as to the applicability of the trope given that there's been a (admittedly recent) history of problems with this page.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Madrugada MOD Since: Jan, 2001
2017-05-05 08:29:34

Nubian Satyress: You were warned here [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=49029&type=att in this previous ATT] by Septimus, who is also a mod. The warning doesn't have to come from the same nod as the suspension.

The rest of you: This isn't being productive. I'm locking this thread.

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