TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Ask The Tropers

Go To

Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help. It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread for ongoing cleanup projects.

Ask the Tropers:

Trope Related Question:

Make Private (For security bugs or stuff only for moderators)

GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013
2017-01-04 03:45:57

Your post is a bit confusing and I'm not sure I understand what the problem is.

Do you mean that a character that is an anti-villain in the original work, and intended to be viewed as at least somewhat sympathetic, is given the Ron the Death Eater treatment by fans, or in derivative fiction? Or do you meant that the people troping them on the main work page ignore their sympathetic qualities and describe them as a full-blown villain?

And are you sure you mean Draco in Leather Pants? That would mean treating the anti-villain as a hero.

Edited by GnomeTitan
Adept MOD (Holding A Herring)
2017-01-04 06:02:36

I think there was a previous ATT discussion that mentions how Ron the Death Eater and Draco in Leather Pants can't apply to the same character, though that notion was being contested. Are you asking for a further clarification about this issue?

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2017-01-04 06:29:30

The question is whether an Anti-Villain can be given a DILP or RTDE treatment. A careful reading of the tropes indicates that this should be possible, either by changing them from villainous to good or from sympathetic villainy to outright evil. Frankly, I find this to be a little problematic, as it opens the tropes to be used any time a fan depiction of a character is the tiniest bit lighter or darker, but there doesn't seem to be a fundamental reason why it's not possible.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ChrisX Since: Jan, 2001
2017-01-04 07:35:31

... Okay on second thought, that was seriously a confusing message. Let's go over this one by one.

@Gnome Titan: A character that is an anti-villain in the original work is given the Draco in Leather Pants treatment, but it is written in a way that "They're only being treated more sympathetically because they're good looking, forgetting that they're also originally bad people who did this crime, that crime." It felt like a Stealth Insult to put an Anti-Villain like that, because it kind of insinuates that people only liked that Anti-Villain because of good looks, not because of their actually sympathetic qualities, meaning the fan looked more like a 'horny dog'. But... is that also a proper way to utilize Draco in Leather Pants to an Anti-Villain? This seems to be very open for possible Fan Hater to misuse the trope by using it as a way to say "The character is an unlikable bad guy, and you're all weirdos/morons for liking that bad guy!"

While, as said below, I am also wondering if it's possible if an Anti-Villain gets given a Ron the Death Eater treatment by the fans who treated that their sympathetic qualities are non-existant, because... well, they just don't like the character in general. Is that also possible?

@Adept: I wonder if for further clarification, we could use a topic in a forum to discuss this.

@Fighteer: An Anti-Villain can run the risk on both. I was thinking that perhaps it can be limited: DILP can only apply to characters originally not meant to be sympathetic by the original story, like a full on villain, a Jerkass that was only fueled with Freudian Excuse at most. If the character is an Anti-Villain, meaning that the story gave seeds for sympathy, then it's not DILP. Conversely, for RTDE, it can only apply if the character is meant to be a good, sympathetic GOOD guy by the story and then is made to take levels in jerkass or become a full blown villain. Though I'm OK if this idea gets shot down.

In addition, by the definition, an Anti-Villain can run the risk of getting both DILP and RTDE. One camp may play up their existing sympathy points make them look better with it, while another camp may play up their bad points or antagonist status to make them look worse. I'm just looking for answers, so whatever the answer may be, I accept.

Edited by ChrisX
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2017-01-04 07:43:42

This seems like a Trope Talk item...

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
ChrisX Since: Jan, 2001
2017-01-04 07:52:24

Hm, actually I found an example where someone can be very grey (or bordering Blue and Orange) in morality that I'm not sure to call this guy Anti-Hero or Anti-Villain, and yet the entry manages to say that the character is both DILP and RTDE. It's... Super Dangan Ronpa 2.

So... is it legit or needs fixing because a character can't be both?

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2017-01-04 08:33:11

A specific treatment of a character can't be both, but a character could certainly get different treatments in different fanworks.

Edit: Note that one should list Draco in Leather Pants or Ron the Death Eater on the derivative work, not the parent. This may be part of the confusion.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ChrisX Since: Jan, 2001
2017-01-04 15:37:25

@Fighteer: Perhaps you can show via example about what counts and what doesn't, based on what you just said? For clarification.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2017-01-04 20:58:00

So for clarification; all of the examples for RtDE and DiLP on YMMV.Super Dangan Ronpa 2 are misuse because the page is not for a derivative of the original work.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
ChrisX Since: Jan, 2001
2017-01-05 01:18:51

If we change that, we'll have to do a lot of sweeping in the whole site, because most of the entries of RTDE and DILP is referring to the original work, not derivative. This would end up making DILP and RTDE something that can only appear in 'fanwork' or sorts... depending on how you describe 'derivative' work is. It's going to be a huge change if applied.

Adept MOD (Holding A Herring)
2017-01-05 05:26:47

Well, a lot of those derivative works don't have their own pages so one can't really trope them in the relevant work page. Another issue is that the a lot of the entries in the trope page itself talk more about the tendency of certain characters being whitewashed or demonised in fanworks, and not actually mentioning the specific instances of it happening.

Edited by Adept
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2017-01-05 06:14:58

Examples Are Not General; no trope example is about the "tendency" of works to match a narrative.

Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2017-01-05 06:50:05

Yes, that is a sweeping change, and it needs to be done, because our rule about not troping derivative works in the parent work must apply consistently. If the derivative work doesn't have an article, then, well... too bad.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ChrisX Since: Jan, 2001
2017-01-05 17:29:49

I think it will help if we can make a distinct difference between 'treatment in derivative works' with how 'people comment on communities like forums'.

For instance, Bob is an Anti-Villain with both sympathetic qualities and negative qualities. In the forum, there's a camp who only sees at his negative qualities, and ignores the sympathetic ones, considering them nonexistant or dwarfed in the face of his negative qualities.

Would that count as giving him a Ron the Death Eater treatment?

Likewise, if another camp is playing up his positive qualities while downplaying the bad sides severely, but limited to forum discussions and sometimes 'fanarts' (like drawing pictures that showcases Bob's good qualities, being accused as whitewashing his negative qualities) or things like that (there are no fanfictions that made it like that), would it count as a Draco in Leather Pants treatment?

Or it's just 'being a Base-Breaking Character'? That often gets confused with each other.

Edited by ChrisX
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2017-01-05 18:00:50

That would be Base-Breaking Character. The fact that some people view characters in more or less positive light than their original portrayal is not tropable.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ChrisX Since: Jan, 2001
2017-01-05 18:19:55

All right. To further get the clarification of DILP and RTDE...

Let's say that there's also Charlie. Unlike Bob, he's a Villain. Maybe a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds... but still, he's played as more of a villain than Bob ever was. But he does have his charms, like being Affably Evil and having humorous lines.

Charlie is played upon by the fandom, via fanarts or forum talks like he's more a friendly, misunderstood dude, when his more obvious villainous traits get toned down for the sake of his hilarity, but we don't see fanfics that overly do so. Does that count as a DILP on Charlie?

(Actually does fanart even count as 'derivative work'? I thought it was...)

Adept MOD (Holding A Herring)
2017-01-05 19:51:14

The "Related Tropes" section in the DILP page does mention the following: 'Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds: Like Jerkass Woobie, when the "Woobie" is used to ignore the "Destroyer of Worlds" part'.

And yes, fanarts count as derivative works, but since a single image don't really count as a story (unless it's a comic or an illustration for a narrative), it couldn't, by itself, be used to gauge if DILP/RTDE is being applied to a character.

Edited by Adept
ChrisX Since: Jan, 2001
2017-01-06 02:45:48

Ah right. In that case, the 'fanart' would actually be a 'majority' of the fanarts in the net.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2017-01-06 04:47:39

Examples Are Not General; no trope example is about the "tendency" of works, even derivative works.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Top