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Unknownlight Since: Aug, 2009
2016-02-15 18:07:08

Admittedly, I haven't watched much Dragon Ball Z, but I also don't think Goku counts as Beware the Nice Ones. As I understand it, that trope isn't "nice characters who get angry when their loved ones are hurt" (that would be People Sit on Chairs), the trope is about abnormally nice, deferential characters who — when they do get mad — get extremely mad, almost as if they're releasing all the pent-up rage that they never normally express.

For one, Goku is capital-G "Good", but he's not a sweet, deferential character at all. Secondly, he generally has a lot of self-control even when he does get mad. His rage never seems out of character or abnormal considering the circumstances.

For Beam-O-War, given this description on the page:

"These two beams slam against each other in the middle, and begin "pushing" back and forth, essentially becoming an energy arm-wrestle."

...It also doesn't sound like an example to me.

As for Krillin, I haven't watched enough to give an opinion on that.

Edited by Unknownlight
DarkHunter Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-15 18:15:14

I will agree with you regarding the Beware the Nice Ones entry. When he isn't in a fight, Goku is gentle, kind, and peaceful. Given the nature of Dragonball, we rarely see him outside a fight, but I'd say he definitely qualifies as a nice guy under most circumstances.

Regarding Beam-O-War, my personal opinion would be that they're being overly pedantic, but I can see enough logic behind their argument that I could see it that way too. So I'm torn on that.

Butt-Monkey as relating to Krillin is arguable. It's a common fan position that Krillin is a Butt Monkey (see: Dragon Ball Abridged), but most of that is centered around the fact that he Can't Catch Up yet still gets involved in a lot of plots, so he seems kind of ineffectual. Compared to the other sidelined characters in the series, though, Krillin honestly has it pretty good (he's portrayed as courageous and skilled even when completely outmatched, he starts a family with a beautiful woman, and the latest entries have him holding down a steady job), and is rarely the butt of a joke despite his relative weakness. And when there is a joke regarding him, it doesn't revolve around his misfortune or weakness, generally it's more slapstick. So, personally, I'd say he isn't really a Butt-Monkey.

Edited by DarkHunter
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-15 18:19:02

Thing is, Goku is very nice, one of the nicest people on the show. I also don't see how Goku isn't sweet and he is respectful, at least tries to be, but because of how naive he is he often comes off as rude. Also, he tends to lose self control when very angry especially as a child. Also, him swearing to kill someone is out of character, and it happens when he reaches his breaking point.

The Beam-O-War in question meets in the middle for several seconds and is tie. Then they explode because they're even. It sounds like a Beam-O-War to me, it's just that it was a tie with no winner.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
2016-02-15 18:27:27

Two beams colliding and exploding is not a Beam-O-War. It would only count if they spent an extended period where the beams fought each other. Immediate action does not count.

Goku isn't nice as defined by that trope. He's always itching for a fight. People underestimate him because they don't think a fool could be so strong.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-15 18:31:37

Him being a Blood Knight doesn't mean he isn't a nice person. He doesn't go out picking fights and he doesn't fight people weaker than him unless they attack him or harm someone. And when he does fight, he isn't overly violent unless they hurt someone he cares about.

As for Krillin being the Butt-Monkey, the author more or less said that he is comic relief. He is the first main character to die in the series, have the most deaths, get some of the most humiliating defeats early in the series, ect. Granted, he doesn't have it as bad as Yamcha, but he is a Butt-Monkey.

Edited by Ramona122003
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
2016-02-15 19:04:48

And just because he is nice doesn't qualify him. Being a Blood Knight in fact does the opposite. Just because Goku is kind and willing to spare enemies doesn't make it an example of Beware the Nice Ones, because at the same time he is all-too willing to kick their asses and makes that point clear. Pushing him to kill is only a slight escalation.

Gohan is a much better fit, because he does not want to fight and turns into an asskicker when pushed. Goku is hardly nice by comparison.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-15 19:12:02

Goku is a Blood Knight who enjoys a good fight, but he doesn't go out and pick fights or even needlessly hurt people when they do try to fight him. Most of his down time he's spends training and not fighting anyone. In fact, he more often than not ignores people who tries to pick a fight with him. Gohan is nicer than Goku, but doesn't mean Goku isn't nice just because he likes to fight strong people.

Edited by Ramona122003
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
2016-02-15 19:13:33

I'm with Penguin on this. Goku's way to eager to get scrappy to qualify.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-15 19:17:41

He's only eager when fighting strong people. The majority of the time, he doesn't bother fighting people unless provoke or when protecting someone.

Unknownlight Since: Aug, 2009
2016-02-15 19:20:28

"but doesn't mean Goku isn't nice just because he likes to fight strong people."

I think you're misinterpreting this trope. No one's saying that Goku isn't nice. He's very nice. But that doesn't mean that he fits the trope Beware the Nice Ones. There are multiple qualifications a character has to fill for that trope to apply, and Goku doesn't really fit most of them.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-15 19:32:03

I did read the trope in question, several times.

The sweeter, gentler, more polite, more peaceful, and overall nicer a character is, the worse it will be for whomever is in the vicinity when they're subject to one round too many of Break the Cutie, or Dude, Where's My Respect??, a Rant Inducing Slight, or hitting their Berserk Button or Rage Breaking Point. What was once a sweet and nice individual suddenly snaps and becomes something far worse than the Big Bad could have expected.

This perfectly describes Goku who is one of the nicest people, is overall peaceful, gentle, and do try to be polite but falls short because of his naivety, although he does get better as he gets older. Also, he is a Technical Pacifist since he only fights when protecting others if we don't count his sparring or tournament matches, which Gohan also enjoys. Even a person who falls into Good Is Not Soft can be this trope.

I honestly see nothing that disqualifies Goku other than people saying he's a Blood Knight, which isn't on the trope page at all.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
2016-02-15 19:44:39

That's oversimplifying it. Yes, Goku's nice, but he'll pick fights with strong people just cause. (Case in point, he fights Beerus because Beerus is strong and for no other reason.) Being a Technical Pacifist undermines your point, because you're outright admitting that this is a guy who will kick ass and only doesn't like to kill. It's not Beware the Nice Ones if Goku's first solution to any problem is to punch strong people until it stops.

Beware the Nice Ones defines a person or group who suddenly become deadly threats in a way that is unexpected because of their attitudes. Goku is only ever underestimated because he keeps getting powerups and never because he's a nice guy. The two characteristics are completely divorced.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-15 19:57:18

How did I undermine my point? Goku is a Technical Pacifist, which can be an example of Beware the Nice Ones as stated here:

Especially bad when dealing with a Technical Pacifist, and even worse when dealing with an Actual Pacifist (for whom this is not an unusual trait). Combine all at once and there may not be a minimum safe distance to escape their wrath.

Also, violent isn't always Goku's first solution, case in point the Ginyu Force where Goku tries to tell them to leave before he beats them up. He did pick a fight with Beerus, but is was more like requesting a sparring match than anything serious. He didn't demand or bully Beerus into fighting him, he politely asked and even bowed.

Finally, Goku does get underestimated because he's nice, Ginyu Force again. Vegeta calls him a soft-hearted idiot more than once.

Edited by Ramona122003
TobiasDrake (Edited uphill both ways)
2016-02-16 07:12:40

Gohan is the Beware the Nice Ones character of the franchise. He's sweet, polite, soft-spoken, and gentle until someone pisses him off. Then he lightswitches into unstoppable rage. That behavior, the shift from harmless innocent to invulnerable death dealer, is what the trope is about.

Goku doesn't have that. He's not overtly malicious, but that doesn't make him a sweet and gentle soul. He gets angry when things happen that would reasonably upset him, but that's not the same as lightswitching into a roaring behemoth of pure rage. He's just a fairly decent guy for a Blood Knight, who sometimes gets angry when bad things happen to people.

Even the Technical Pacifist point is flawed: that was just a brief period of Goku's life. He started it at Piccolo Jr. and ended at Frieza. Before the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, Goku had no reservations about killing enemies. After Frieza, he never offered to spare an enemy again. Not to mention, any time he gave a reason for why he doesn't want to kill a foe, it's a wholly selfish or cruel one.

He spared Piccolo so the Dragon Balls would continue existing.

He spared Vegeta so he could have a rematch in the future and even openly admitted to Krillin that it was a selfish decision.

He spared Frieza so that Frieza would be forced to live in the shame of being defeated, a Cruel Mercy fate to a character who prides himself on being an unstopabble, insurmountable, ultimate force in the universe.

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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-02-16 08:57:37

Gohan is an example, but we are not talking about Gohan. It should also be pointed out that Gohan offered no mercy towards Buu either and tried to kill Dabura, so it isn't like he above not offering mercy to his foes.

He also does have light switching anger. Compared his reaction to Krillin being killed to how he normally acts. He goes berserk, much like Gohan. Also, Goku always been a Technical Pacifist. When he's not fighting for sport, he won't attack anyone unless they're harming someone. Being a Technical Pacifist does not mean you have a no kill policy, especially since a person who is an example Good Is Not Soft can being an example of Beware Of The Nice one. You also got it partly wrong about Piccolo and Frieza. He spares Piccolo for the Dragon Balls and Kami's sake outright saying he doesn't want Kami to die. Frieza was Cruel Mercy, but he did show real pity towards Frieza after he begged for his life and gave him some of his energy. He didn't kill Nappa and told Vegeta to leave the planet, he gave mercy towards Mr. Buu after Mr. Satan pleaded his case, and wished for Kid Buu to be reborn as a good person since he really couldn't spare him since he was insane.

Edited by Ramona122003
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2016-02-16 10:27:48

I'd say Goku never counted as Beware the Nice Ones. He's never not really dangerous. He's been willing and able to kill from when he was a kid. He's a borderline Blood Knight always looking for a fight. He doesn't kill other people willy-nilly, but he certainly does kill them. There's just not enough of a difference between reaching a tipping point between him being nice and people having to beware of him.

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