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If you say so.
At first, I was going to put it under What Do You Mean, It's Not Political?, but I hesitated, because "collectivism" isn't a political party. In its extreme, it can be a political ideology, but I still wasn't sure this counted.
Then I read Mary Sue Topia and it all seemed to fit.
Either that or it seems like a case of Author Tract or Writer on Board.
Edited by KingZealNo, really, go look at flame bait. Almost ALL the mary sue tropes are on that npow. Should we also include Mary Sue Topia?
@KingZeal: The original disagreement was over whether the entry regarding Celica and Rock should be included. Which I still think it shouldn't be.
No one, except Chausson, tries to make Rock feel he's obligated to help NLA. Celica and Elma's team do everything they can to support his right to remain pacifistic. By the affinity mission's conclusion, no one has changed their stance on that matter. Rock didn't want to fight and he still isn't. No one ever says or implies that it isn't his right.
Edited by MiinUGiven that Mary Sue and related tropes are Flame Bait, it's best not to include Sue Topia.
135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311What Do You Mean, It's Not Political? seems like it fits. Mary Suetopia I dunno.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanMore specifically, the quest I described is where Miin U and I are disagreeing.
Miin U feels that the protagonists vocally supporting a position means the story automatically portrays the position in a positive light. My argument though is that the story still goes out of its way to undermine said position.
The analogy I used is a story that has a vegan hunter who refuses to hunt in a village that survives from hunting. The story claims to support his position, but the entire story focuses on all the trouble the other villagers go through to try and support his beliefs.
Any other opinions about this? Miin U and I stll seem to disagree about the quest in the example, and I'd like at least a consensus.
(Disclaimer: Haven't played.)
In my opinion, it still qualifies at face value if the work tells you that it's a Mary Sue Topia. If it shows the problems but the message doesn't change, then that's a failure of Show, Don't Tell, barring evidence to the contrary.
The characters being American has nothing to do with anything.
I played the game, it is anything but a Marysue Topia. Everyone works together or at least tries to because if they don't, they will die. It is more of a mutual survival and everyone needs to pull their weight. A better analog is that a vegan hunter who refuses to hunt in a village that survives from hunting and people are starving and need the meat. There is also a shortage of hunters and they need everyone to pitch in, or else they all face death.
I haven't done this particular quest yet, but the game usually let's the player decide what they think is right and live with the consequences of whatever choice you make.
Edited by Ramona122003Ramona, that's what makes it a Sue Topia: it creates a situation in which the only way to survive is to adhere to the tenants of the political ideology. It's kind of like how Starship Troopers (both film and book) deliberately portrayed a Mary Sue Topia of a fascist military state. Though it shows men and women being picked apart at the seams by the bug aliens in the Bug War, the bugs serve only the narrative purpose of justifying the militarism of the story. They are the grand enemy that the militarism has targeted to destroy. The bugs (and in XBCX, the Death World) and the danger they present do not subvert the utopia, but justify it: they are the reason why varying from the societal ideology is not tolerated.
Also, the reason I added that particular quest is because it's one of the few where you can't choose what you find right or wrong. It ends with Rook approving Chausson's actions either through apology or praise. You can't choose whether or not you approve—only how.
Edited by KingZealJust by reading the definition of Marysue Topia it doesn't fit. It specifically calls the society perfect. New LA isn't perfect at all. There is racism, murder, stealing, and other shady stuff happening despite the need to work together. Starship Trooper is also a horrible example since it is painful obvious that society is messed up, but no one seems to notice. A better example would be the Federation from Star Trek.
Since I still haven't played that quest, I can't argue either way if it fits the trope in question.
Reread the definition again.
The trope also states that the problems of the society are caused by people who do not fit the society's ideology. As I stated in my first post, every person who doesn't fit it turns out to be either a criminal, a murderer, a xenophobe, or all three.
The page says:
Thus, some of these utopias might actually work. However, the distinctive characteristic of a Mary Suetopia is that it goes beyond just being a perfect society - it's a perfect society filled with perfect people, who show enthusiastic support for the author's society's ideology. For example, maybe no one is poor unless they don't adhere to core ideology. Anyone who disagrees with that ideology is misguided at best and evil at worst, and by the end of the story they will either suffer a horrible fate or give up their old ways and embrace the One True Path.
That is exactly what New LA is depicted as. Everyone who adheres to the "we need to work together and build bonds with each other" ideology is depicted as being happy or fulfilled. Aliens who join the city find themselves adapting to it.
Starship Troopers (the film) was, by the directors' own admission, a completely faithful adaptation of the themes of the book. The book played the utopia part completely straight.
Edited by KingZealPlease take this to Trope Talk.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickSomeone else will have to, because I can't. :(
Question: since a lot of these issues I bring up seem to belong in Trope Talk, but my posting privileges are revoked, what should I do?
I don't want to step on any toes, but it's hard to update/maintain the wiki when one of the methods for doing so has been cut off.

Miin U and I are having a long and heated debate on YMMV.Xenoblade Chronicles X. I don't think either of us are going to change our mind on the topic.
The issue at hand is a debate over whether or not the Hub World of the game counts as a Mary Sue Topia. I added the trope there because it fits all the ticks of one. It's almost a by-the-numbers collectivist utopia. To wit:
TL;DR version: To me, this is an obvious political allegory for Collectivism (especially since the game is made in Japan, although the characters are American. Miin U doesn't agree because he feels that if the story was meant to be a collectivist allegory, the characters wouldn't be American.
In the meantime, I've edited my original post to be more succinct and removed the wordy description of the aformentioned mission. That said, if anyone can give their two cents, I'd appreciate it.
Edited by KingZeal