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tryrar Since: Sep, 2010
2016-01-08 18:13:57

Wait, weren't all the mary sue tropes supposed to be moved to flame bait?

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
2016-01-08 18:16:25

If you say so.

At first, I was going to put it under What Do You Mean, It's Not Political?, but I hesitated, because "collectivism" isn't a political party. In its extreme, it can be a political ideology, but I still wasn't sure this counted.

Then I read Mary Sue Topia and it all seemed to fit.

Either that or it seems like a case of Author Tract or Writer on Board.

Edited by KingZeal
tryrar Since: Sep, 2010
2016-01-08 18:36:11

No, really, go look at flame bait. Almost ALL the mary sue tropes are on that npow. Should we also include Mary Sue Topia?

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
2016-01-08 18:38:55

I'll leave that up to better heads than me.

For a YMMV trope, though, it's not that badly written. The name is just unfortunate.

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
2016-01-08 19:29:12

@KingZeal: The original disagreement was over whether the entry regarding Celica and Rock should be included. Which I still think it shouldn't be.

No one, except Chausson, tries to make Rock feel he's obligated to help NLA. Celica and Elma's team do everything they can to support his right to remain pacifistic. By the affinity mission's conclusion, no one has changed their stance on that matter. Rock didn't want to fight and he still isn't. No one ever says or implies that it isn't his right.

Edited by MiinU
MyFinalEdits (Spin-off Series)
2016-01-08 20:00:56

Given that Mary Sue and related tropes are Flame Bait, it's best not to include Sue Topia.

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
tryrar Since: Sep, 2010
2016-01-08 20:14:10

Yeah, given this is Mary-Sue-As-Town/City/Country/etc. ,I'm pretty sure this should have been included in the purge.

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2016-01-09 02:17:01

What Do You Mean, It's Not Political? seems like it fits. Mary Suetopia I dunno.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
2016-01-09 07:30:12

More specifically, the quest I described is where Miin U and I are disagreeing.

Miin U feels that the protagonists vocally supporting a position means the story automatically portrays the position in a positive light. My argument though is that the story still goes out of its way to undermine said position.

The analogy I used is a story that has a vegan hunter who refuses to hunt in a village that survives from hunting. The story claims to support his position, but the entire story focuses on all the trouble the other villagers go through to try and support his beliefs.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
2016-01-10 10:25:39

Any other opinions about this? Miin U and I stll seem to disagree about the quest in the example, and I'd like at least a consensus.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
2016-01-10 22:42:28

(Disclaimer: Haven't played.)

In my opinion, it still qualifies at face value if the work tells you that it's a Mary Sue Topia. If it shows the problems but the message doesn't change, then that's a failure of Show, Don't Tell, barring evidence to the contrary.

The characters being American has nothing to do with anything.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-01-11 04:53:47

I played the game, it is anything but a Marysue Topia. Everyone works together or at least tries to because if they don't, they will die. It is more of a mutual survival and everyone needs to pull their weight. A better analog is that a vegan hunter who refuses to hunt in a village that survives from hunting and people are starving and need the meat. There is also a shortage of hunters and they need everyone to pitch in, or else they all face death.

I haven't done this particular quest yet, but the game usually let's the player decide what they think is right and live with the consequences of whatever choice you make.

Edited by Ramona122003
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
2016-01-11 10:22:02

Ramona, that's what makes it a Sue Topia: it creates a situation in which the only way to survive is to adhere to the tenants of the political ideology. It's kind of like how Starship Troopers (both film and book) deliberately portrayed a Mary Sue Topia of a fascist military state. Though it shows men and women being picked apart at the seams by the bug aliens in the Bug War, the bugs serve only the narrative purpose of justifying the militarism of the story. They are the grand enemy that the militarism has targeted to destroy. The bugs (and in XBCX, the Death World) and the danger they present do not subvert the utopia, but justify it: they are the reason why varying from the societal ideology is not tolerated.

Also, the reason I added that particular quest is because it's one of the few where you can't choose what you find right or wrong. It ends with Rook approving Chausson's actions either through apology or praise. You can't choose whether or not you approve—only how.

Edited by KingZeal
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2016-01-11 10:33:33

Just by reading the definition of Marysue Topia it doesn't fit. It specifically calls the society perfect. New LA isn't perfect at all. There is racism, murder, stealing, and other shady stuff happening despite the need to work together. Starship Trooper is also a horrible example since it is painful obvious that society is messed up, but no one seems to notice. A better example would be the Federation from Star Trek.

Since I still haven't played that quest, I can't argue either way if it fits the trope in question.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
2016-01-11 10:36:42

Reread the definition again.

The trope also states that the problems of the society are caused by people who do not fit the society's ideology. As I stated in my first post, every person who doesn't fit it turns out to be either a criminal, a murderer, a xenophobe, or all three.

The page says:

Thus, some of these utopias might actually work. However, the distinctive characteristic of a Mary Suetopia is that it goes beyond just being a perfect society - it's a perfect society filled with perfect people, who show enthusiastic support for the author's society's ideology. For example, maybe no one is poor unless they don't adhere to core ideology. Anyone who disagrees with that ideology is misguided at best and evil at worst, and by the end of the story they will either suffer a horrible fate or give up their old ways and embrace the One True Path.

That is exactly what New LA is depicted as. Everyone who adheres to the "we need to work together and build bonds with each other" ideology is depicted as being happy or fulfilled. Aliens who join the city find themselves adapting to it.

Starship Troopers (the film) was, by the directors' own admission, a completely faithful adaptation of the themes of the book. The book played the utopia part completely straight.

Edited by KingZeal
shimaspawn MOD Since: May, 2010
2016-01-11 11:30:10

Please take this to Trope Talk.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
2016-01-11 12:42:38

Someone else will have to, because I can't. :(

Question: since a lot of these issues I bring up seem to belong in Trope Talk, but my posting privileges are revoked, what should I do?

I don't want to step on any toes, but it's hard to update/maintain the wiki when one of the methods for doing so has been cut off.

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