Have a question about how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help.
It's not for everything, though. For a list of all the resources for your questions, click here. You can also go to this Directory thread
for ongoing cleanup projects.
Since Ramona never replied on the Discussion page, let me just copy-paste what I said there:
T There's no need to list overlapping themes as individual examples. We don't need word cruft like "Vegeta learns this over and over again until it sticks" or the "ruined and death" bit referring to Frieza. It doesn't add anything that isn't already said.
Also, I notice that Ramona seems to be insistent on the words "give up" being part of the aesop. I question this because no heroic character actually gave up and solved a problem when it mattered. Even the "exceptions" prove the rule. Goku fought Beerus until he literally couldn't anymore. He only gave up against Cell because he had a pinch fighter waiting (Gohan) and although he accepted that his strength wasn't enough to defeat Kid Buu or Frieza and resorted to the Spirit Bomb on both occasions.
"Giving up" carries specific semantic connotations that doesn't work here. The paragraph I rewrote deals with what is the closer theme: knowing your limits. Japanese culture has words like "genkai" and "seishin" that specifically go over this issue: Genkai ("limit") means to work or attempt something until your physical or mental limits do not allow you to go further. Seishin (translated on the TrainingFromHell.Anime And Manga page) is then the task the person must take to overcome those limits.
Accepting your limits is very much part of the theme of DBZ. "Giving up" (again, which carries specific meaning in English) does not.
Edited by KingZealThat is really nit-picking and the discussion never showed up on my watch list.
No matter how you try to break it, Goku did give up against Cell and Beerus because he accepted that he couldn't win. Also, it is Frieza's inability to give up and admit that he lost that destroyed him. He refused to give up after Goku spared him, got him cut to pieces. He still refused to give up, got him blasted by Goku. In Resurration 'F', Goku offered to spare him and he could return to fight another day. He refused and got himself killed. A lot of Frieza's problems wouldn't have happened if he graciously accepted that Goku was better than him.
Going into Japanese culture is a different subject all together, honestly, and I don't see how writing an example of the aesop is a world cuff.
Also, the two I wanted to be separated was the matter of pride, which I don't see as the same as giving up. Namely, Vegeta's pride in his ability caused a lot of problem, like him allowing Cell to become complete and his inability to accept that Goku is better than him. By Vegeta finally learning to put his pride aside, he becomes a better person and fighter. At the same time, the series do show pride in a positive light and an overall good thing, as long as it doesn't override your common sense.
I specifically left a note on the edit reason saying to see the Discussion page.
Again, the words "give up" has connotations that don't apply here. Goku didn't surrender to Cell or Beerus and let them do as they pleased. Goku "gave up" against Beerus only after his body simply COULD NOT fight anymore. He "gave up" against Cell because he had Gohan waiting to finish the job for him. In other circumstances, where Goku knows winning with his own strength is impossible, and he absolutely cannot afford to lose, he resorts to the Spirit Bomb as a final option. In a semantic sense, that is NOT "giving up"— it's knowing your limits, as I sad.
Frieza's inability to "give up" is covered by the segments on "pride" and "being a bully". Frieza not giving up wasn't the only problem—it was his pride and his need to be a bully that was his undoing. Again, "giving up" has connotations that do not work. This isn't nitpicking—it's trying to avod loaded language and values dissonance.
As I said, everything else is word cruft.
Edited by KingZealHmm... the issue I see is that there's two different possibilities that the phrase "give up" could mean.
Ramona is saying that one should be willing to give up the current battle, accept your defeat, and prepare for the next occasion.
King Zeal is concerned that the phrase "give up" would be taken to mean "Give up permanently.", which is definitely not one of DBZ's aesops by any stretch.
In my personal opinion on that specific topic, King Zeal's approach makes more sense to me. "Admitting your inferiority (at this time)" carries the same meaning which Ramona is trying to convey, without the potentially problematic phrase of "give up" being included.
Admitting that you're an inferior is a weird word choice that I personally never heard before. Admitting that you're not the best and accepting your defeat with grace flows better.
I also disagree with pride is cover under what you wrote under bully and the word cuff since I gave examples of where the aesop applies instead of assuming that the reader just know.
Also, Goku did give up against Cell and Beerus, and admitted that they were simply better than him. He didn't fight to the bitter end despite knowing he couldn't win. It should also should be noted that in the movie, Beerus made Goku verbally surrender, not just drop like in Super.
As for your note under edit, I saw it, but the discussion never showed up on my Watch list like it does for ever other discussion that has been posted.
Edited by Ramona122003First, you never hearing wording or a phrase before doesn't automatically mean your choice is better. No offense, but I've noticed that English either isn't your first language, or you have difficulty with grammar. For example, you keep calling "word cruft", which is what I used to describe your wording, with "word cuff".
Second, the problem here is that you keep insisting on adding the "accepting your defeat with grace" part to this aesop, which as both I and the troper above have said, is not an aesop in Dragonball. Or at least, not in the context you're using it.
Goku didn't "give up" against Beerus in any meaningful sense of the term. Unlike Vegeta, Cell, Buu and especially Frieza, Goku had used up every ounce of his power fighting an opponent. (Laughing was enough to cause him to black out at that point.) Goku could not fight anymore. Only then did he admit Beerus was stronger. Cell was another exception; Goku gave up because Gohan was the better fighter at that time.
The fact that Super apparently adapted Goku's verbal surrender out (I haven't seen it) only seems to further my point. But even in the original movie, Goku was only gracious in his defeat because Beerus was a Punch-Clock Villain for whom this was Nothing Personal. Unlike Cell, Frieza or Buu, Beerus wasn't just cruel. In a Japanese context, Goku's battle with Beerus was a test of Goku's determination and spirit. The Old Kai even says this afterward; Goku's character is what convinces Beerus not to destroy the Earth.
I could go on and on about Japanese culture and words like seishin, genkai, makoto, and omoiyari and how they all play into the aesop here, but that would require language lessons that nobody has time for. Suffice it to say that "giving up" is the wrong wording to use in this context.
And finally, the individual examples are already covered in what I wrote; namely that Vegeta and Frieza lost because their pride and desire to bully the weak made them weak. Adding further details beyond that is just unnecessary. Examples on the wiki don't need excessively-detailed info.
Edited by KingZealActually, the lesson of accepting defeat and learning from it has been a part of Dragon Ball since the beginning with the tournaments. And I really don't need a lesson in Japanese culture. If a Japanese person wants to give their insight, fine, but stuff like this belongs on Culture Clash or something.
It also doesn't matter if Beerus is a Punch-Clock Villain, Goku still surrounded to him once he accepted that he couldn't win, much like Cell.
And bullying and pride is not the same thing. Vegeta's inability to let go of his pride has nothing to do with wanting to bully. It has everything to do with him wanting to be the best. The bullying is just a subset of that, like most f the villains on the show.
Also, English is my first language.
Edited by Ramona122003And none of the tournaments Goku lost had the fate of the world at stake, which is my point. And for the final time, Goku didn't "surrender" to Cell—he let another character take over, and he didn't surrender in any meaningful sense to Beerus either.
I've said my peace here. It's clear I can't convince you and you're not giving any indication of wanting consensus, so I'm leaving the matter up to other people.
Edited by KingZealI thought that is why we put it in this section to begin with. I don't really care since I find the whole thing is about semantics silly. I also find it funny that you say that I don't want a consensus when I didn't change much or anything of what you wrote when you completely erased my entries and even agreed to combine several themes into one, which I didn't completely agree with, but decided it was fine.
You're the one being stubborn over word choices to the point that you erased the entire An Aesop entry and decided to attack my grammar for no other purpose than to try to dismiss what I have written. I was actually enjoying our little debate until you decided to make it personal.
Also, Goku gave up against Beerus despite Beerus saying point-blank that he will destroy the Earth as promise since he lost. So even with the world was at stalk, Goku still surrender to a superior opponent. Also, Goku himself did surrender to Cell because he was the better. It didn't matter if he thought Gohan could do the job, especially since Goku fully admitted that Gohan may fail.
Edited by Ramona122003No, what I mean is that King Zeal completely erase the example of An Aesop before bringing into discussion. Which I feel is overkill since we agree on the main points and the disagreement is purely semantics. I would happily put the examples back to make it more of a compromised, which I was trying to do from the start, but I don't want to be tag for starting an edit war.
Also, we seemed to have a disagreement about whether this entry:
- You can't get stronger without finding something good to fight for. Extending from the point above, using your power to bully or oppress others is a sign of weakness, because there are much more worthy things you could do with that power. Likewise, compassion is always the right thing to do. Goku shows absolutely everyone compassion, up until the point where he (or Gohan) has no choice (as with Frieza, Cell and Buu). This pure heart is what allows most of his enemies to eventually join his side. By contrast, people who only fight for pride (such as Frieza and Vegeta before Character Development) tend to meet a horrible end until they learn their lesson.
Covers pride. Personally, I liked what I wrote better, since I personally find King Zeal's entry to be be needlessly long-winded and isn't really the aesop I was talking about. There is also the problem that Goku often fights for selfish purposes like for the sake of a good fight.
- Forgiving those who do evil and accepting second chances can lead to lifetime enemies becoming friends and even family. At the same time, there are times when you will have no choice but to kill since some people will never change no matter how many chances they receive. Although most of Goku's friends are former enemies, he couldn't show any mercy to Frieza and Gohan couldn't reason with Cell despite his pleas.
But it isn't a hill I'm willing to die on so I left it be.
Edited by Ramona122003Please observe that An Aesop (a.k.a. "a moral") is a moment at the end of the work or episode when the lesson the audience is supposed to learn is made explicit. It is not just any lesson that you, as a reader/viewer, draw from a work personally.
From your discussion, I cannot discern if there is An Aesop at all. If there was, there should not be so much debate over what exactly it is.
Well, the first part about self-improvement, never stop learning, knowing your limits are explicably, and there is always someone better is noted by the author and the Japanese voice actors. It is even said that the lack of growth from the villains is what makes them different from the heroes. Goku's Japanese voice actress goes into depth about how Goku surrendering to Beerus instead of fighting to the bitter end, shows a lot of growth on his part because he accepted someone better than him and chose to learn from the experience instead of being bitter.
The lesson of pride and how it is not a good thing when it overcomes your common sense is clearly seen by Vegeta and Frieza. In fact, Vegeta's entire character arc in Z is about him letting go of his pride. At the same time, Goku's arc is about taking pride in his heritage.
In the Frieze Saga, Cell Saga, and Resurration 'F', it is noted that showing mercy has it benefits, but there are some people who can't be reason with and violent really is the only answer.
So, these particularly lessons are made very clear within the show. The semantics that King Zeal has problem with is the used of 'giving up'. Although it's a term that the voice actors and actoress used, but in a positive way to show growth.
Edited by Ramona122003

King Zeal and I seems to having a disagreement on Tropes A to G about An Aesop. To be blunt, I am not sure what King Zeal's problem is. It seems they have a problem with weather several aespos should be merged into one mega entry.
This is what I wrote:
This is King Zeal's entry:
Seriously, it is basically the same thing, except I think the entry about pride is its on aesop and doesn't need to be cram in one place.
But for the sake of everyone's sanity, what do you guys think?
Edited by Ramona122003