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crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-12-14 09:24:16

If they periodically turn up in discussions of the book, then why did you remove them? Matter of fact, I'll just join you in discussing this in the discussion page.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
2015-12-14 09:45:24

Am periodically checking and am happy to discuss.

But to clarify, it's not just that the examples are "wrong" (in terms of interpretation) it's also they are wrong trope/editing wise.

So like Bob is not a Designated Hero because he doesn't fit the descriptor of the trope. What the example is getting at is (now that I think of it) more like Unintentionally Unsympathetic (even if the troper's reasons for thinking that are wrong).

I do think in some respects that Scrooge is a Designated Villain but that example was already added and the additional bullet they edited is both natter and sort of factually wrong.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-12-14 09:51:57

The whole YMMV page (and probably the work pages) needs some cleaning in terms of Natter and Example Indentation, so I'm not surprised. If someone feels up to it, going through the Christmas-themed pages to check for proper example writing would be nice for everyone around.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-12-14 11:01:33

That... but the story tells you what his crimes were. His crime was that he refused to help people. He was willing to let Tiny Tim die of illness right in front of him knowing he could have stopped it, and he let other people suffer even though he could have eased their plight. He could have used his wealth to help others and still had plenty for himself, but he chose not to.

And at the risk of being accused of soapboxing again, yes, if a little boy is dying horribly right in front of you and you yell at him and turn away, that IS a crime - if not legally, then at least ethically.

I honestly don't see how anyone who honestly read the story or even watched one of the movies could possibly believe that "his only crime was being rich."

Edited by wrm5
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-14 11:17:49

Would that line up Scrooge as a Villain Protagonist, then? He's the main character and the whole plot centers on turning him to the Good.

wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-12-14 11:30:16

I would say yes. That was kind of the entire point - it's supposed to be a redemption story. It can't be a redemption story unless the character is considered a bad guy at the start, right? And Villain Protagonist does say that it still counts if they turn good at the end.

Edited by wrm5
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-12-14 11:43:27

He's a jerkass, to be sure, but the narrative doesn't frame him as a villain. Not all works have those.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-12-14 11:52:27

I don't know. I mean, I'd say he's not an antagonist but...

Maybe I should ask, what is our cutoff for "villainous?"

Because it seems to me that if the entire story is about a progression of ghosts reminding you of every rotten thing you've ever done and ever will do, culminating in them telling you you're going to die miserable and alone and no one will care... I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me.

But yeah, what exactly is our definition or requirement for being considered villainous?

MagBas Since: Jun, 2009
2015-12-14 12:02:27

If i am not mistaken, being treated as this by the work.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2015-12-14 12:07:34

I mean, the entire point of the work is for him to have a Heel Realization which implies... not necessarily villainy, but certainly something close enough that villainous tropes should be applicable.

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wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-12-14 12:08:07

Then, again, what sort of treatment would you consider to be in line with the work considering them a villain?

Sorry if it seems like I'm being difficult, but I really don't see how you can not consider Scrooge a villain. I mean, he's not irredeemable, but... well, what Larkmarn said basically.

Edited by wrm5
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-12-14 12:46:06

"ghosts reminding you of every rotten thing you've ever done and ever will do"

Most of what the ghosts showed were what rotten things were done to Scrooge. But this discussion fits better in the work's discussion page or a Literature thread than in ATT.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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