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SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2015-12-11 00:21:29

Ask the folks in the Arab Spring thread, I'd say.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-11 07:52:44

Ah I didn't know that was a thing. Good idea.

Edited by DracMonster
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-11 10:29:36

I disagree that it should be cut. The tropes being listed there are how the events are being depicted in media. I've done my best to make sure it doesn't skew anything and apart from going against a policy of troping real life events, has not caused any controversy or headache.

I therefore would like the page to remain open. I'll police it to keep it at high standards, and will take seriously any specific concerns. But wholesale deletion is draconian in my view.

MarqFJA (Before Recorded History)
2015-12-11 10:38:51

It would also be nice to know where it was decided that Useful Notes should be cleared out of any tropes that do not involve their depiction in fictional works. I (and probably other editors) never heard a whisper of such a thing before.

Edited by MarqFJA Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-12-11 12:39:10

It was decided a while back, fairly publicly. It's based on the idea that troping "real life" people and events constitutes gossip, and that it's not the purpose of a Useful Notes article to do so anyway. A Useful Notes article should contain:

  • Information about a Real Life topic that is contrasted with its typical portrayal in media, with the ostensible purpose of helping writers portray it accurately in their works.

It may contain:

  • Media references to that topic (but NOT as an index!).
  • Tropes frequently encountered in media references to that topic.

It may not contain:

  • Tropes that are specifically about that topic.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-11 13:13:35

The page contains tropes frequently encountered in the media about the topic. None of us (I'd hope) are not actually on the battlefield. Everything we get about this war is through the media, and thus the tropes about the topic are all referenced and inferenced from media coverage.

DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-11 13:29:41

It... uses the tropes to call real life people villains among other no-nos. We're not allowed to do that even on Adolph Hitler's page.

I'm not in favor of cutting it now that I know there's an active forum community on the subject, but it has to be revamped. It just has too many violations of our rules right now.

Edited by DracMonster
Jhaelyn Since: Dec, 2009
2015-12-11 13:36:29

And there's a difference between media, as in news, and media, as in how fictional stories are portrayed. TV Tropes is about the fictional stories, so wouldn't the list of Tropes need to be about how a fictional story portrays a RL event, not how the RL news portrays it?

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-12-11 14:02:14

By media, we mean fictional portrayals, not news. Documentaries and historical works are iffy.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-11 15:52:17

What is this, Wikipedia? Part of the fun of this website is to see things troped. Including real life. There are plenty of pages here on this site that has that, including historical periods, nations, organizations. And this website also covers news media in examples, along with Real Life.

I'm not saying there aren't instances where this must be discouraged (like Hitler), but something like that should be a case by case basis, not some sort of blanket rule.

Again, if there are specific tropes that go waaay beyond the pale (as opposed to a faux pas because its being applied to real life), I will certainly try to fix that. The point of the page is to be both fun and informative.

jamespolk Since: Aug, 2012
2015-12-11 16:21:57

^You are completely correct. But unfortunately the decision has already been made by TPTB.

We'd be better served cutting all Useful Notes tropes from the wiki, honestly.

Edited by jamespolk
KnitTie Since: Mar, 2015
2015-12-11 16:39:48

I'd just like to say that I believe describing real life in terms of tropes on this site makes much more sense than trying to turn the Useful Notes into another instance of a wiki.

Jhaelyn Since: Dec, 2009
2015-12-11 16:58:06

But we aren't a website for describing real life in terms of tropes or to see things troped. We're a website for documenting tropes as used to tell stories and real life, since it's not a story, is not really tropeable.

Edited by Jhaelyn
jamespolk Since: Aug, 2012
2015-12-11 17:05:12

^Who says what we are? Ideally we're a community and the community would decide.

Useful Notes as an informational tool are just worthless. I could be an idiot and go to TV Tropes to learn about the Arab Spring, I guess, or go to a real article on a wiki that is all about documenting history and Real Life events.

Eh. This battle's already been fought and lost.

Edited by jamespolk
Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2015-12-11 17:58:17

The Useful Notes articles are not meant to be fully informative recountings of every detail of real events, people, or other matters.

They are meant to contain enough information that anyone doing basic-level research can get general information on the subject, which is often in flagrant contrast to how the subject is shown in media.

If someone were writing an in-depth look at the subject, they would be expected to look elsewhere, at multiple sources, as they selected information to use.

The Useful Notes policy has been around at least eighteen months, debated here and in the forums. It was decided by the consensus of those participating.

The no troping real life -especially evil tropes- goes back at least two and half to three years; it often comes up in the Real Life Maintenance thread as one of the offered reasons a trope should be made NRLEP.

Yes, mods were involved in both decisions -without their hats. (The pink background.) They participated as ordinary tropers, with their experience with what works on the wiki and in the forums proving very useful.

These things were discussed. The discussions may have been buried by time, but they exist in the memory data.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-11 19:40:05

I'm not debating the policy proper myself, and as such I take it on faith that this policy was discussed. I just think it's too broad and draconian in its application when the page itself isn't causing any harm. Even with evil tropes, the page doesn't try to do black and white.

And Troping the events make it clear why certain events become short hand for collections of tropes in narrative. The Arab Spring has entered fiction (as shown in the short and almost certainly not exhaustive list at the bottom of the page), but its such a nebulous and broad topic, I feel like the page gives a better (not best, thats what The Other Wiki is for, and even there they are having problems) understanding.

AegisP Since: Oct, 2014
2015-12-12 00:08:40

"Even with Evil Tropes" are you for real? And no, we dont trope Real Life.

Edited by AegisP As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-12-12 05:57:00

You do not believe it should be a blanket rule? Okay, then start a Wiki Talk thread about how the policy might be changed, and the benefits to changing the policy.

Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
RoseAndHeather (Edited uphill both ways)
2015-12-12 10:32:07

...so we as a community aren't even allowed to discuss the policy? When this site is supposed to be about the community?

Yeah, that doesn't come off badly, or anything.

I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.
jamespolk Since: Aug, 2012
2015-12-12 11:04:20

^The change was "fairly publicly" discussed in a couple of forum threads that hardly anyone reads. I'd bet that less than ten people made this decision for the rest of the wiki, which is why we keep getting threads here from time to time asking why this or that Useful Notes article has been gutted.

We've never gotten a reasonable justification for Useful Notes articles that lack trope lists. "The ostensible purpose of helping writers portray it accurately in their works"...well, the next writer who bases their work off a TV Tropes article will probably be the first.

DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-12 11:28:09

Urk, never realized I'd be setting off a powder keg with this...

jamespolk Since: Aug, 2012
2015-12-12 11:35:31

^Ha!

Actually I agree with you that it should be cut. Along with every other Useful Notes article, at least those that are dedicated to historical events. I guess there might still be some utility for Useful Notes about countries that list works set there.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-12-12 11:39:39

The "change" is older than my presense on this wiki. It is a bad idea to preemptively lock threads that discuss aspects of the policy that have history behind them, because the history is not easy to read, so it makes policies appear to be fiat by a select group of website admins that do not listen to the community hosted here.

Certain policies are by fiat, such as "we are not a suicide helpline". Certain policies are imposed by our advertisement providers, such as the content policy. But the use and purpose of the Useful Notes namespace was a community descision.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
2015-12-12 12:47:38

I'm gonna stick to the specific page, as I don't know enough about this general debate to really give much more than a "I agree it needs further and renewed debate" statement. I also am VERY leery about the idea that a discussion would be immediately locked simply because it was debated sometime in the past.

I again ask what is wrong with the page. Until, for faux pas reasons, it was brought to attention, this page was not causing any problems. I have repeatedly offered to help make the page better without outright destroying it for the sake of a rule that is being applied in a draconian manner.

We are not wikipedia. I get not wanting to start flame wars, but we shouldn't be obsessing over political correctness either.

KyleJacobs Since: Mar, 2011
2015-12-12 13:47:35

I'll also toss my hat in and say that I loathe the way the real-life policy is applied here. Preventing any future discussion of policy because of one forum thread three years ago is patently absurd.

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2015-12-12 16:01:04

Meh, send it to Wiki Talk. It's taking over ATT a bit. I'll ask for the discussion to be kept open.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MarqFJA (Before Recorded History)
2015-12-30 13:44:40

Apparently someone made a thread for this in Trope Talk here. It would seem prudent to direct any further discussion of this topic to there.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
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