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crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-11-05 16:16:38

There's enough batman-specific stuff (I'm sure without looking) that is outside of the original medium that the examples belong on either a Multimedia Franchise subpage, or a Batman subpage, not the comicbook subpage.

I don't think we should expect people looking for Crazy-Prepared examples from The Dark Knight to be looking under Comic Books, when they likely haven't read any of the comics.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2015-11-05 17:14:22

Batman does deserve his own page over there. I'd say (Not A Mod) recreate the page and post a commented-out note as well as edit reason referring here. A note on the discussion page wouldn't hurt, either.

The image issue should be taken to Image Pickin' forum.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
2015-11-05 17:34:47

Another vote to revert. Not to mention the comment natter and edit-warring going on. Point the offenders to this thread when you revert.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-11-05 18:36:00

Agreed with the case to revert as well.

eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
2015-11-05 22:00:29

No. Batman is not a medium. We've already learnt this lesson over and over. What it does to "walking" an index is go from moving clearly from medium to medium, to suddenly hitting a series of pages where it start jumping from one medium to another following a character. You can't tell when you have completed a medium. At least when the character is under only its originating medium, the damage is contained to that medium.

The wiki can turn character-based very quickly, which could work on wiki mostly about a particular franchise, or even just one medium. We are primarily about how things across media and across franchises.

BTW, there is nothing to prevent the Film.The Dark Knight page from having a set of Crazy-Prepared bullets. That would be the way you would expect someone to look up Crazy-Prepared stuff for the movie, among those people not familiar with the comics. They certainly wouldn't go looking for a series of pages about the character, any more than they would expect to find a DArtagnan.Crazy Prepared page.

Edited by eyebones For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-11-05 22:09:43

...no one is saying Batman is a medium, and I'm not sure what lesson you're talking about.

I mean, we have a NightmareFuel.Monster Hunter, and no one is saying Monster Hunter is a medium.

We have a AccidentalInnuendo.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic, and no one is saying that's a medium.

What happens is, when a certain franchise or show has SO MANY EXAMPLES that it takes over a large part of the page, we give it its own page. Batman has SO many examples of Crazy-Prepared that it could easily take over the entire page, so we give it its own.

DarkHunter Since: Jan, 2001
2015-11-05 23:09:50

Yeah, giving a character (or work) a page of their own because they just have so many examples is standard practice on this wiki.

Adding my vote to revert to the consensus.

To whom it may concern: eyebones is the guy edit-warring over this in the first place.

Edited by DarkHunter
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-11-05 23:36:46

And I'm not sure why you think it would be so difficult to find the page. All you do is go to Franchise.Batman and click on the "Crazy-Prepared" tab at the top of the page. That's two steps. That's not hard.

As for people who are looking for Batman's section on the CrazyPrepared.Comic Books page... again, you just add a little thing at the top like....

Examples with their own subpage

Also index it on the main Crazy-Prepared page as such...

Edited by wrm5
SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2015-11-06 00:23:24

Um, that latter is a violation of the Example Indentation rules.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
2015-11-06 00:48:24

Yup. And doing a restore on this bogus split is not edit warring. It is repairing a bad split.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
StFan Since: Jan, 2001
2015-11-06 01:29:48

This Wiki works by consensus. All I wanted to know is where the tropers' opinions leaned, and clearly it is for the split, with only one dissonant voice. Beside the minor issue of how to present it on the main page, I think the case is settled. I will revert the Batman content to its subpage and put a comment on the Comic Book page explaining the decision.

eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
2015-11-06 01:58:44

Well, a consensus is not reached a few comments all in one day. There should be an opportunity for others to chime in. Shall we say two weeks?

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
CrypticMirror Since: Jan, 2001
2015-11-06 02:44:49

I'm for splitting Batman off, if that matters. I agree there are more than enough examples to warrant it.

desdendelle (Sergeant)
2015-11-06 03:18:32

Agreeing with the split. It's been done before and, generally speaking, I'd rather have a separate page for Batman than have his examples take half of another page.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-11-06 04:53:06

"Not edit warring"

Woah, time out! Please read Edit War. You do not get excused for being the one making the "right" edit. If the mods had caught ~St Fan recreating the page without checking for consensus, they would have been suspended as a reminder.

The only way to avoid an Edit War is to first find consensus. Either with the troper making the "improper" edit, or with the larger community. That is what ~St Fan did, and going against consensus would violate Rule #1.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-11-06 05:01:46

Let's take a step back here and recognize why CrazyPrepared.Batman and CrazyPrepared.Comic Books exist as they do. The first is, hierarchically speaking, a subpage of a work article, while the second is a subpage of a trope article. Per the normal crosswicking rules, an example (from a Batman comic book) should be listed on both pages. However, the wiki software is incapable of making this distinction, and that causes tropers to confuse them as well.

What we have in mind for the far future of the site will clear this problem up, but for now, we have to figure out a way to settle the issue that doesn't involve a major edit war.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2015-11-06 05:23:57

Eyebones doesn't want the subpage. His reasoning is not in line with how we do things on this wiki that are not iron-rule-bound.

I, St. Fan, crazysamaritan, wrm5. Dark Hunter, Discar, desdendelle, and Cryptic Mirror all want the subpage. We have wiki precedence as a guideline, the size of the Crazy-Prepared Batman section across all relevant media warrants it, and it puts off any future problems with the size of the page.

As for the listing issue, would it be acceptable to do it such?

  • Anime
  • Batman
  • Comic Books

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-11-06 05:29:22

^ Yes, I know that's how the consensus has it, but that's not technically correct according to how our wiki is organized. Unfortunately, it's probably impossible to fix without a software change.

Also, indenting it beneath the applicable medium is not an Example Indentation violation on indexes; I'm not sure why Septimus said that. The problem, rather, is that the page contains examples from multiple mediums, so you can't neatly establish it beneath any one of them. This is exactly why we shouldn't list work-specific or franchise-specific subpages on the trope index.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2015-11-06 05:53:50

I did say it because work specific subpages are indexed on the medium subpage, not on the main page. For example, all Complete Monster work subpages are listed on medium subpages, not on the main CM page.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
StFan Since: Jan, 2001
2015-11-06 07:04:23

I have moved the page already. Sorry if it was a bit jumping the gun, but I thought the consensus was easily reached. Waiting one week, least two, would only mean the discussion be buried deep in Ask the Tropers, new topics tends to pop up fast.

As for the main page doing the indexing, I've put the Batman wick on top in a separated section ("by franchise") from the rest ("by media"). And yes, I've checked first if other Crazy-Prepared work subpages existed, but there's only the Batman one. I think this is satisfying as such, but if you want to suggest a different organisation, I'm open.

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-11-06 07:29:44

Having a separate Franchise section makes the most sense, if we're going to go with this idea.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LordGro (Old as dirt)
2015-11-06 08:12:51

This should be simple.

Examples from Batman comcis go to CrazyPrepared.Comic Books. Examples from Batman movies go to CrazyPrepared.Film. Examples from animated Batman go to CrazyPrepared.Western Animation. And so on.

It's an established principle on the wiki that in example sorting, medium beats franchise. There's zero reason to create arbitrary exemptions to this rule. I would actually encourage the mods to decide this by fiat.

Edited by LordGro
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2015-11-06 08:24:17

The reason why Batman gets his own section is because he got so many moments, since he's the one who made the standard for Crazy-Prepared. It is no different than how other Franchises have their own section when they become too big.

LordGro (Old as dirt)
2015-11-06 08:52:38

Obviously, no franchise should get their own subpage in a trope's example pages.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2015-11-06 08:58:34

... why? It's really common practice, or do you specifically mean Franchise/, not franchise?

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-11-06 09:21:42

The key point that is being missed is this: trope subpages are supposed to be extensions of the main article, used for organizational purposes. Similarly, work subpages are extensions of the work article. All trope examples (save for specific cases) should exist in two places: the work article and the trope article, and this doesn't change just because there are so many examples for a given work that it acquires a subpage.

CrazyPrepared.Batman is either a work subpage or a trope subpage; it is not allowed to be both simultaneously. That we have been doing this is a sign of laziness.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LordGro (Old as dirt)
2015-11-06 09:35:09

^^ I mean that a franchise, or really any work, is not a medium, and therefore, there's no reason to make a trope example subpage for a specific franchise or work, just as there's no reason to make a separate folder for a franchise or work on a folderized list.

This is especially true when it's a multimedia franchise, which means that examples from different media are pulled from their media categories and crammed together in a multi-media franchise category.

Why is this bad? Because when it comes to describing and analyzing tropes, medium is a more important category than franchise. It's all okay to group examples by franchise within a given media category, but when you start breaking up media categories only to form work categories, you are setting false priorities.

^ I understand the problem, but my impression is that most posters here interpret CrazyPrepared.Batman as a trope subpage.

Edited by LordGro
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
LordGro (Old as dirt)
2015-11-06 10:17:57

There are bluelinked work titles, but after a few random checks I'm pretty sure most of the examples are not properly crosswicked. There are no Crazy-Prepared examples at all on The Batman Adventures, Batman: Arkham City, or The Dark Knight. Batman: Arkham Asylum has a list of Crazy-Prepared examples which are partially equivalent to the ones on CrazyPrepared.Batman, but they are not identical and obviously have been written separately.

This is the entry for Crazy-Prepared on Franchise.Batman:

  • Crazy-Prepared: Batman plus the Bat-family has his own category on the page.

No actual crosswick.

Edited by LordGro
bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2015-11-06 11:31:19

CrazyPrepared/Batman has been a target of an indentation edit war in the past.

In any case, I consider it a subpage of Crazy Prepared, not a subpage of Batman.

Edited by bwburke94 2025: the year it all ends?
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