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DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-14 17:00:35

He died, pretty much everything he did was undone, and his son turned good. In the end, King Piccolo failed at everything.

I'm with Larkmarn on this one.

Near-Villain Victory, now, that might fit what you're going for better. (But then, it applies to pretty much every villain in that series except the comical throw-away ones.)

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-14 17:13:55

His son turning good really doesn't matter in this context since we are talking about the things he did before his death. Although what he did was undone, he still achieved his goals. The trope, The Bad Guy Wins, even says that the bad guy's work can be undone later and still count.

DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-14 17:18:52

Does achieving what he wanted for thirty seconds before Goku comes along and kicks his ass really sound like it fits the spirit of the trope?

Seriously, just go with Near-Villain Victory.

Edited by DracMonster
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-14 17:21:05

His ruled actually last a couple of days. I don't see why you're being a smartass.

And going by the 'spirit of the trope', he did achieve everything he wanted, unlike 'every' other villain in the series who were stopped before they got to their end goal. The only real point of debate is how short it was. Near-Villain Victory doesn't really fit in my opinion.

Edited by Ramona122003
rodneyAnonymous Since: Aug, 2010
2015-10-14 17:30:32

It seems like The Bad Guy Wins is about the ultimate result. If the villain triumphs halfway through, no matter how completely their goals get fulfilled, if they are defeated at the end of the story then they didn't win. The spirit of the trope is that it's an ending, something that describes the story overall, not something that happens at some point during the story.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-14 17:42:42

I can see your point. If we're talking about complete ending, then yes.

When I read the trope, however, it did speak of a lighter and softer version of the trope. Namely, the bad guy wins, but the victory is either good, not that great for the villain, or they won, but is eventually over throne after a length of time. Kind of like how Revenge of the Sith is a case of The Bad Guy Wins, although we all know that the good guys will still win in the end.

MyFinalEdits (Spin-off Series)
2015-10-14 18:04:05

Simply put, it's not an example of The Bad Guy Wins, because King Piccolo's evil doesn't last forever and his son's "evil" decreased after his defeat in the tournament until it reached zero during the fight against Vegeta. Also, Ramona, please tone down the rudeness. Calling someone a "smartass" is in no way productive.

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-14 18:21:42

I only used smartass because the post above was unnecessarily condescending, but that besides the point.

As I said, his son doesn't factor into this. We're talking about King Piccolo taking over the world. And The Bad Guy Wins doesn't say that the rule or evil last forever. It out rights says that the villain's rule can be over throne at a later date. See my Revenge of the Sith example.

DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-14 20:37:40

Look, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be condescending, but what you're doing here is like trying to insist that a plane counts as a Cool Car because it has wheels and an engine — you're taking an overly literal, pedantic reading of a trope to try to shoehorn your example in.

It is very obvious that the "undone later" part has to happen in a sequel or at least a later story arc, otherwise you could probably attach it to literally every villain ever, since a bad guy almost always has some victories before being defeated.

The trope may not explicitly spell that out but it's common sense.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2015-10-15 05:46:08

First off, thanks for saying Larkmarn instead of Larkman. You have no idea how often that happens.

Secondly... yeah, to parrot everyone, it's about the ultimate result. It's very explicitly an ending trope, and in the end, Piccolo loses. Another variant is for the villain to create a Villain World that the heroes must topple in a future story the "future story" part is very important. Goku doesn't topple him in a future story. He doesn't topple him in a future arc. He beats him a few episodes later. The Bad Guy Wins is for when it's "well, game over. Evil wins, good loses." Good didn't lose in the end, so it doesn't apply.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-15 09:21:58

Dude, everyone knows Larkman is your superhero identity by now. Just stop this farce.

("It's a bird, it's a plane! No, wait, it's just a bird...")

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
2015-10-16 08:39:08

Still completely disagree and you really can't attached every form victory as a The Bad Guy Wins, but fine.

Edited by Ramona122003
rodneyAnonymous Since: Aug, 2010
2015-10-16 11:35:57

You don't have to change your mind, but the consensus is it's not an example. TBGW is an Ending Trope, specifically a kind of Downer Ending. All counter-examples that you've given happened in a sequel.

Edited by rodneyAnonymous Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
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