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SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2015-03-18 09:23:47

Some tropes are helped by self-demo, so yes. It's not common, though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-03-18 11:16:08

I think we regard it similarly to Real Life examples of tropes: It's permitted if, and only if, it doesn't cause problems. Specifically, if it doesn't negatively impact Clear Concise Witty. If the page makes sense and adequately explains everything it needs to explain and happens to be Self-Demonstrating, then it's chill. But if the page is rambly and confusing because somebody thought it was more important to write with Added Alliterative Appeal and start every word for five paragraphs with the letter "H" just because the trope title is Horned Humanoid, that's a mess and should be dealt with.

Edited by SolipSchism
MagBas Since: Jun, 2009
2015-03-23 16:42:31

Sorry.

Edited by MagBas
muddycurve424 Since: Jun, 2013
2015-03-23 19:43:50

^I forgive you. Thank you for apologizing. (I don't actually know what you're sorry for, still I accept)

Black is Order, White is Chaos.
bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2015-03-24 15:30:54

So the alliteration thing SolipSchism mentioned is to be avoided, yes?

I guess that means Puppet Permutation needs a rewrite.

2025: the year it all ends?
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-03-24 16:01:12

Clear, Concise, Witty. If attempting to be cutesy obfuscates the content of the article, it gets dumped.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-03-24 16:45:10

Specifically, it's Clear Concise Witty, in that order. Clarity first. Conciseness second. Wittiness third.

rodneyAnonymous Since: Aug, 2010
2015-03-24 21:39:35

Note that they're all important, though. Clarity may be more important than wittiness, but it doesn't automatically trump it. If the article being written as Self-Demonstrating is a huge hit to clarity and only a small boost to wittiness, sure, kill it. If it's a huge boost to wittiness and only a small hit to clarity, not necessarily.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-03-24 21:59:40

^ Not really. Clear Concise Witty is always in that order, no matter what. There will never be a case where Wittiness is allowed to trump Clarity, except maybe in the deepest depths of Just for Fun or Darth Wiki. (For example: How Not to Write an Example, where wittiness trumping clarity is done on purpose to provide an example of why you don't do that.)

Wittiness is encouraged and yeah, you're allowed to make jokes at some slight expense to clarity as long as we're still able to tell what you're saying. But no, if we can't tell what you're trying to say then the page gets changed, no matter how drop dead hilarious the joke was.

Edited by wrm5
SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2015-03-25 01:01:14

wrm5, we do in fact let wittiness trump clarity at times. In these terms, when the text becomes too boring or too long.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-03-25 01:57:40

^ I dunno. I mean, that's not really wittiness or conciseness trumping clarity, just them existing. They're important, definitely, but I don't think they could ever be said to trump it.

There are plenty of cases where we've changed pages that were funny or short because they didn't make sense, but none that I can remember where we said "This page isn't funny enough, let's turn it into incoherent gibberish!"

Edited by wrm5
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
2015-03-25 03:41:35

I think people are saying the same things, just using different words here.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2015-03-25 06:45:54

I think it's a mix-up between complicate and confuse. One doesn't have to mean the other. :p

Confusing something while trying to make it witty isn't allowed.

Complicating something but still saying it clearly when making it witty is allowed.

At least, that's the way I see it.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
rodneyAnonymous Since: Aug, 2010
2015-03-25 14:21:17

None of the three (Clear Concise Witty) trumps any of the others under any circumstances. Beats, maybe, but trumps means "always beats no matter what". A trump 2 beats a non-trump king.

I said "Clarity may be more important than wittiness, but it doesn't automatically trump it." That is completely accurate. Self-Demonstrating article writing is a bad example for this principle, because it's almost always high clarity versus low wittiness, so clarity almost always wins. A small hit to clear might be an okay trade for a big boost to witty, though.

This is a subtle but important distinction. It is probably most relevant to trope naming.

Edited by rodneyAnonymous Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
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