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NemuruMaeNi Since: Apr, 2014
2015-02-19 23:28:53

:/ ...

Note that What An Idiot is not a trope. It's a YMMV item. As such, if you wanted to keep the entry as What an Idiot, it should have been moved to ymmv subpage. If the other party guessed you wished to keep this example still a character page material, branding an example back as a trope was doing you a favor.

The context provided for the example is not enough for my non-fan self to suggest what is the right thing for the described event. However, it's quite strange to see trope misuse sentiments in close proximity to simple slapping of another name in the front and leaving example that way. If that's supposed to be a What An Idiot example, my advice is to read What an Idiot more carefully, and to explicitly forbid oneself to get by on trope names alone in the future.

Edited by NemuruMaeNi
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-02-20 03:21:17

Except it's not doing a favor because, as he just said, it's not an example of Too Dumb to Live.

Too Dumb to Live is a Death Trope, specifically for when a character dies (or something equally horrible) as a result of their own stupidity. From the page itself:

Note: This trope has been subject to some misuse. If you see any examples or pot holes to this page in which the character's stupidity does not result in their demise, please remove them or point them to one of the alternative idiocy tropes.

If the character didn't die, become a zombie, etc. because of his stupidity then it does not count.

However, since you are right that What An Idiot is a YMMV item and therefore not applicable to character pages, I suggest using Idiot Ball instead.

I also suggest that in the future you refrain from such condescending remarks, especially since you're actually in the wrong here.

Edited by wrm5
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
2015-02-20 08:26:53

Whoops, didn't realize Idiot was YMMV, was just going by its mention in TDTL. My mistake.

Anyway, I'm not certain about Idiot Ball, either, as he was intentionally sabotaging the engine, it wasn't "never thought that would happen" from a person previously shown to be intelligent. That the bus crashed so dramatically is something I'd think no one would really expect.

Edited by Nohbody All your safe space are belong to Trump
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-02-20 09:33:15

^^^ Nitpicking, but YMMV items are, in fact, tropes. They are YMMV tropes, not objective tropes.

wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-02-20 11:33:39

^^ That's exactly what Idiot Ball means: he did something really stupid. The fact that he did it on purpose is irrelevant, and being a genius prior to the incident isn't a requirement.

SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-02-20 11:49:35

I'm not familiar with the work, but to be clear, Idiot Ball is not just "Character does something stupid". It's "Character does something uncharacteristically stupid in service to the plot."

If he's just a stupid character in general, he cannot, by definition, hold the Idiot Ball unless he's being spectacularly, exceptionally stupid, even by his own stupid standards, and the reason for it is that the plot requires it.

Edited by SolipSchism
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
2015-02-20 11:55:52

So the question is, how stupid is the character normally?

SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-02-20 11:59:00

Aaaaaaand that is a question for Nohbody and whoever else is editing that page to answer. :p

Chris116 Since: Aug, 2013
2015-02-20 12:41:25

The character in question has a lot of book smarts, but as made evident by this page, he's made some dumb choices. How about Ditzy Genius, since he is really smart, but he sometimes just has zero common sense?

And yeah, I changed it back to TDTL because I figured that what was listed under YMMV trope "What an Idiot" was an important part of his character, and it did nearly get him and his friends killed. But Ditzy Genius sounds a thousand times better, thanks for educating us on what TDTL really is.

I'm also pretty much completely unaware of Edit Wars and the like, so sorry for any inconveniences, folks!

Edited by Chris116
wrm5 Since: Mar, 2014
rodneyAnonymous Since: Aug, 2010
2015-02-22 00:03:40

"Nitpicking, but YMMV items are, in fact, tropes."

No, tropes are objective.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-02-23 11:27:19

Tell that to YMMV Tropes.

The definition of a trope is objective.

Whether or not a YMMV trope applies is subjective. It is still a trope. We can all agree that the definition of Narm is when something intended to be dramatic comes across as comedic because of poor execution. But what makes it YMMV is that not everyone will agree on what is funny, or on what is intended without Word of God.

Edited by SolipSchism
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2015-02-23 11:55:17

There are two concepts here that we lump together somewhat clumsily: tropes that everyone may not necessarily agree are present, but are found in the work, its presentation, etc.; and Audience Reactions, which are not tropes at all.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
2015-03-02 11:36:58

(Should pay more attention to my watchlist. Sorry.)

The problem I have with using Too Dumb to Live in regards to the incident is that there was no way, in-universe, that sabotaging the fuel line could be believed to result in the bus flipping over as it did. That was pure "let's make the failure dramatic for TV".

All your safe space are belong to Trump
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-03-02 14:16:50

Well, did it result (unpredictably or otherwise) in the bus flipping over, or did the bus flip over as the result of something else? Cause and effect matters here, and I have not seen the episode in question.

Edited by SolipSchism
rodneyAnonymous Since: Aug, 2010
2015-03-02 16:51:31

YMMV Tropes is a redirect, not the real article name, and is the only thing on that page that supports that argument.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
2015-03-03 07:29:22

^^ Just rewatched the scene (intro scene for S5E5, "Self Help"). Focus was on Eugene talking with Maggie and Glenn in the back. There's a loud "bang", and focus shifts to Abraham. He loses control while swerving around cars sitting on the road, and then the bus flips when it hits one wreck, winding up on its side after having just passed a herd of walkers.

Would Abraham have lost control if not for the sabotage? Probably not, especially if he has MRAP driving experience, but at least as far as I can tell there's no reason to believe that the sabotage directly caused the accident, or for Eugene to think it's even a serious possibility.

(Setting aside, mind you, that there's a filter between the gas tank and the engine that would stop the ground glass from getting much of anywhere in the first place. :P )

Edited by Nohbody All your safe space are belong to Trump
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-03-03 09:39:14

^^ It's not an argument, it's a statement, so take your "being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational" somewhere else please. If you don't think they're tropes then cutlist the redirect and move on with your life.

^ So... what caused the bang? The glass? What makes him flip over? Swerving? Hitting a car?

I'm starting to feel like this situation might just be too complex or nebulous to explain an example adequately even if it did fit... which it doesn't sound like it does.

Edited by SolipSchism
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
2015-03-03 10:19:55

It doesn't show or say the cause of the bang. The only reason the audience knows about the ground glass in the gas tank was Eugene mentioning it after the fact.

As for the flip, Abraham was trying to get the church bus (shortened bus, not the long school bus style) under control while swerving around cars abandoned on the road, and zigged when he should have zagged, hitting a car in a way that made the already swaying bus (from the swerving) go the rest of the way up off its wheels and topple over onto its side.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-03-03 10:49:24

Ah—yeah, now it definitely doesn't sound like an example. It doesn't sound like his actions had anything to do with anything that actually happened.

rodneyAnonymous Since: Aug, 2010
2015-03-03 12:12:00

I am absolutely not being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. It is an important distinction.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
SolipSchism Since: Jun, 2014
2015-03-03 12:49:02

One which is completely irrelevant to this thread. If you want to argue about it, start a thread somewhere appropriate.

Edited by SolipSchism
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