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People who have never known this factoid and read the page almost certainly exist, so that doesn't count as a good reason.
That said, spoiler tagging a whole sentence seems questionable. And is the identity of an actor really spoilerworthy?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanAnd is the identity of an actor really spoilerworthy?
The identity of the actor gives away the identity of the character. Sebastian Stan played Bucky Barnes in Captain America: The First Avenger, which was released before The Winter Soldier.
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitSince he's listed in the description text for the movie as "[[soiler:Sebastian Stan as the Winter Soldier]]" there is no point getting coy below the line. Anyone that was going to get spoiled by it, we've already done so. Frankly though, if you are coming to a tropes website and so spoiler-phobic that even mentioning an actor's name is a spoiler then you are in for a really bad time.
Edited by CrypticMirrorThat, too. I mean, maybe a better example would be this— do we have to spoiler-tag the fact that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker? That seems really silly. I've seen NONE of the movies, have no interest in them whatsoever, and even I know this.
System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit^^ That's called It Was His Sled.
Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.I realize this isn't Lost And Found, but perhaps a link to the ykttw Spoiled by Casting
is relevant.
To be fair, I think spoilering the fact that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker and also is Luke's father falls under the "spoilered for humor" category, which is a thing, and is okay as long as it's not taken overboard. (Blah Blah Fan Myopia whatever; even if you haven't seen Star Wars, if you don't know those spoilers, please come out from under your rock.)
^ I follow, and I agree. I don't think the example under discussion is It Was His Sled for that reason. But something like Spoiled By Casting would definitely apply.
"If you haven't seen the film then you shouldn't look at the work page for it" is not grounds for de-spoilering stuff. If it were, then we wouldn't even have spoiler tags.
Nothing on Administrivia.Spoilers Off tells me that this particular factoid should be de-spoilered. If it's so spoileriffic that it can't be mentioned without spoilering the whole sentence or example, then the page should be marked with a spoiler warning and all spoilers should be off. But if all you need to do is spoiler-tag the actor's name when it comes up (which really should not be that often), then why isn't that an option?
^Are we really in the business of spoiling public information? I just googled "Captain America: The Winter Soldier", and guess who is listed third on the info box on the right? Sebastian Stan, playing Bucky. Maybe that's another good rule of thumb. If the "spoiler" in question is on the front page of the google search result, then maybe it shouldn't be spoilered.
Matters of fact, public information, these things should not be hidden by the wiki. And if someone is so very sensitive that their ability to enjoy Captain America: The Winter Soldier—a film that was released nearly a year ago—is impacted by the knowledge that someone named Sebastian Stan plays Bucky, then yes, that person should take it upon themselves to not read the work page.
Might as well use spoiler tags to hide the fact that Scarlett Johannson is in the movie. I guess it's OK to say that Chris Evans is in the movie, since "Captain America" is in the title.
Edited by gallium^^ As a slightly-outside-the-scope-of-this-conversation observation, you seem really heated about this. You might want to take a breather before continuing, because it just seems like you're taking it personally.
Literally everything about this movie is "public information" that can be uncovered by a bit of Googling. What's more, spoilering something is not "hiding it", not really. It takes a click of a toggle switch, or a double-click or click-and-drag on the text, to reveal it. People who want to see spoilers can click and see all the spoilers they want—people who don't shouldn't have to tread lightly on a site that has a built-in spoiler feature that exists precisely to help avoid spoiling things.
Note, the above is a general statement; it's not an opinion on whether the fact in question is actually a spoiler. Coming from someone who saw the first Captain America movie and the Avengers but not Winter Soldier, and who isn't familiar with the comic books, and who doesn't really pay much attention to actor names except for big name stars and personal favorites, it does seem like a mild spoiler along the lines of Spoiled by the Format or (more appropriate) something like Spoiled By Casting.
Edited by SolipSchismIf the people who made the film thought it was so obvious that they were willing to give it away through spoilers by casting, why should we care?
It's right there on the film page. Sebastian Stan as The Winter Soldier. Not tagged as a spoiler.
Casual fan: Hey, I wonder who Sebastian Stan is? [goes to his Creator page] Hey, he looks like... and if he's... then that means that... AW, DAMNIT!
And the fact that you're someone who saw the first movie and not the second, and didn't know the spoiler at the same time, AND you're also a member of this site doesn't mean that those people exist in droves. And were it not for this entry, I bet you'd have never visited the page for Winter Soldier. Because you haven't seen it yet.
What would be the point of reading the tropes of a work that you haven't seen unless you're willing to come across spoilers that almost everyone else already knows? If you're that interested in a work to come to a site like this, you probably already know it, or you don't care if it's revealed to you before you see the film.
Good example: Back to the Star Wars scenario. I always knew that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father, but I always thought (obviously wrongly) that he and Anakin Skywalker were two different people. I had that fact spoiled for me by reading Darth Vader's trope page, spoiler tags off. And I wasn't upset.
Now if I would have actually wanted to see the films and was, for whatever reason, perusing the Star Wars page and came across a significant spoiler like Darth Vader sacrificing his life to save Luke, I'd have been pissed. But that would have been my fault for exposing myself to those spoilers with plans to see the film.
Who can you imagine browsing the page for The Winter Soldier with their spoilers marked as visible, and going "What?! The Winter Soldier is Bucky?!" A casual Captain America fan? Who probably wouldn't be on this site in the first place, or wouldn't care about relatively minor spoilers that occur less than halfway through the movie? Hell, a casual fan might not even know who Bucky IS.
"Oh... Cap's friend from the first movie that fell of the train. Isn't that somethin'."
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitCould be Spoiled by the Format, or a rare non-video game example of Interface Spoiler, though.
EDIT: I should mention, I posted this before Ray made his previous comment into a wall of text.
Edited by wrm5'What's more, spoilering something is not "hiding it", not really.'
Well, that's not true. Spoilering something is hiding it. Hiding it where it can easily be found, but hiding it.
Anyway, I'll go with my Google rule of thumb. If the putative spoiler is revealed on the first page of a Google search—not from following any of the links, but from the search page itself—it is not a spoiler.
^^^ Again, taking this conversation personally and getting rude or mocking is not helpful.
Google doesn't have a "spoiler policy", at least as far as I know. Thus, it's nonsensical to use "is it visible on the first page of a hypothetical Google search" as our criteria for judging whether something is "spoiler-worthy". There is no "Google rule of thumb".
I did not say anything about people like me "existing in droves". All I did was state my opinion, and explain my situation so that you'd have some context for weighing that opinion. That's not an "Obviously I'm right" statement. That's a "Here's what I think and here's what I know about the films to give you some context for that opinion" statement. If you think my opinion is worthless or irrelevant because of the fact that I haven't seen CA:WS or read the comics or what-have-you, well, you're wrong, but I guess that's your opinion.
I hardly think "X is on the cast list for Movie Y" means "The creators don't think it's a spoiler." I'm not aware of whether IMDB has a spoiler policy insofar as their cast lists, but I doubt it. They're a fact-based site that provides the facts as they know them. It's silly to say "This information is provided on IMDB and thus it's not a spoiler."
Most of the reasons provided so far in this thread for arguing that Fact X is not a spoiler are along the lines of "X other site provides this information, thus it's not a spoiler." I don't see what any other site's mission or spoiler policy (or lack there of) has to do with how we at TV Tropes handle spoilers.
Edited by SolipSchismNobody's been rude to you yet. Maybe a little sarcasm here or there on my part, but definitely no rudeness.
If you think my opinion is worthless or irrelevant because of the fact that I haven't seen CA:WS or read the comics or what-have-you, well, you're wrong, but I guess that's your opinion.
The point was that people who haven't seen the movie, but plan to, and would be upset with the reveal that Bucky is the Winter Soldier are a significantly small minority. In my opinion, it's not worth it to spoiler-tag a fact that was revealed YEARS before the film came out, in a different medium (with said medium being the one that the character was born in and is most well-known in), AND during the build-up to the film BY THE PRODUCERS through spoilers-by-casting. Now, if The Winter Soldier was someone OTHER than Bucky, this would make sense to spoiler-tag. But he's Bucky in the comics. He shares Bucky's actor. You'd have to actually work hard or just get lucky to be enough of a Captain America fan to visit the trope page for a movie of his you haven't seen yet, not know this spoiler, and not somehow have it revealed to you before seeing the film.
Two of the biggest moments in the movie are each of Captain America's fights against Bucky, but the fact that it's Bucky doesn't make either of those scenes spoilers. They just feature a character whose identity is a spoiler.
But it's hard to write entries about those scenes since you have to omit Bucky's name every time you mention him. I'm getting tired of it already in this entry. That's why I say it's not worth tagging. It makes things too difficult for the majority and would only serve to benefit the minority.
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitAnswer this (but don't forget what I said in my previous posts):
If an animated movie came out called Doomsday, which was a narrative of Superman's battles with the title character and the ensuing aftermath of their eventual clash, and one of the voice actors was featured as "Cyborg Superman," and another as "Steel," would it REALLY be a spoiler that Superman dies?
System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitAND for the existence of Steel? AND the fact that Superman dies in the comic-book storyline? AND the fact that Doomsday's only real selling point is the fact that he killed Superman, so he probably wouldn't have a film named after him otherwise?
That'd be one hell of a swerve for no good reason. Just like it would be if Bucky is The Winter Soldier in the comics, The Winter Soldier and Bucky Barnes share the same actor, but then The Winter Soldier is someone OTHER than Bucky in the film.
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitRay, you need to take a look at Fan Myopia. RIGHT NOW.
Just because you know who Doomsday is, and what Steel has to do with Superman, does NOT mean the rest of planet Earth also does.
Edited by wrm5Funny thing is, I'm not a Superman fan. I haven't seen the movies, I never read the comics. I just know stuff like that because it's such a huge deal that it's relatively common knowledge. The fact that the comic-book storyline is called The Death of Superman doesn't hurt, either.
Just because you know who Doomsday is, and what Steel has to do with Superman, does NOT mean the rest of planet Earth also does.
The fact that the whole "It was his sled" ordeal from Family Guy turned memetic doesn't mean that everyone knows that it refers to Citizen Kane. There could theoretically be someone who plans to watch Citizen Kane, but then runs across the "It was his sled" page on here and has the whole thing ruined for them.
BUT THE ODDS OF THAT ARE INCREDIBLY SMALL.
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitDoomsday also appeared in Justice League Unlimited where he got curb-stomped repeatedly and notably never killed Superman. And Steel had his own movie which Superman does not appear in. And The Death Of Superman came out over twenty years ago.
Again, just because you know these things doesn't mean everyone does.
Also, to paraphrase Einstein: "common knowledge" is nothing but the accumulated prejudices we've acquired by age 18.
Edited by wrm5Why would anyone make a movie based on one episode/story arc of a cartoon? And Cyborg Superman/Steel probably didn't appear in that episode/episodic mini-series.
And the Steel movie did not feature Doomsday, nor Cyborg Superman.
Lastly, the fact that it was 20 years ago makes it that much more obvious. Why are we allowed to have a page whose TITLE spoils one of the greatest movies of all time, but this would be a big deal?
System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitAnd it's not about EVERYONE knowing. Per the It Was His Sled page:
thanks to Popcultural Osmosis, everyone within the target demographic knows the ending already, even those who haven't even seen the show. It's probably never going to surprise anyone again. In many cases, the twist becomes the central fact known even to those only noddingly familiar with the work, and other adaptations take it as read from the beginning.
System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit...okay, no, seriously. What is your deal? You've been arguing for over a day now, posting insulting and condescending walls of text (yes, they ARE insulting and condescending, even if you don't think so) blasting anyone you perceive as disagreeing with you, and now you're actually calling people stupid.
Not everyone knows everything about every work, and those of us who don't appreciate spoiler tags. As long as they're used properly I'm not sure why they make you so angry.
Edited by wrm5I didn't call anyone stupid, and I'm not gonna respond to anything that doesn't pertain to the topic at hand.
This is all I'll say, and if you don't like it and want to continue with the ad hominems, go ahead. Just don't expect a response from me. I've already said this once, so I don't know why I have to repeat myself.
Two of the biggest moments in the movie are each of Captain America's fights against Bucky, but the fact that it's Bucky doesn't make either of those scenes spoilers. They just feature a character whose identity is a spoiler.
But it's hard to write entries about those scenes since you have to omit Bucky's name every time you mention him. I'm getting tired of it already in this entry. That's why I say it's not worth tagging. It makes things too difficult for the majority and would only serve to benefit the minority.
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitSounds like a reasonable question in the context of the conversation to ask.
I don't really follow Captain America -much prefer Wolverine, Rogue, and Phoenix- but even I learned years ago about Bucky and Winter Soldier, just from casual reading of books about Marvel Comic stuff.
If some fans don't know this in at least a general way, I'd be surprised unless they were new or very casual.
Steel isn't really a good example of spoilering, Doomsday, etc. In the DCAU, Steel appeared when Superman was weakened from kryptonite, to fight Metallo while Supes recovered. So he has more than one origin, depending on medium.
Doomsday -that damn storyline was advertised all over the damn bookstores and in comics and whatnot as "Superman Dies! What will become of [insert here]?!??!?!?" It counts for whatever trope is Spoiled by the Lead-up Advertising. Superman's death at Doomsday's hands also comes up in at least a third of both their entries as one of the spotlight moments of their careers.
Edit: Sigh. Two posts since I started typing this... Ninja'd?
Edited by Candi Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry PratchettYou know how when you tell a calm person to calm down you make them not calm? But seriously, deeeeep breaths. The thread is getting really really long. It's difficult to realize that just because you know something that others might not. It's also hard for film makers to hide which actor is playing a part because actors are credited for their roles, and the people who make trailers are separate department and don't always understand what the film makers are going for. As time goes by, and the older something is, it is unreasonable to assume that you have to walk on eggshells around the events of a work, like what happens in Othello. That said: Winter example should be spoiler-tagged, Superman example (though hypothetical) should also be spoiler-tagged as it's a MAJOR event plot-wise.
Edit: Don't forget that the marketing for a work before and around the time of release might reveal things about the story that if you happened to miss (like if you live in a different country) might spoil things for you. So the assumption that everyone knows is does not take into account geography,
Edited by muddycurve424 Black is Order, White is Chaos.So the assumption that everyone knows is does not take into account geography
It does. It's the basis for It Was His Sled. The target demographic.
Super Mario Bros. 2 was apparently All Just a Dream. It's not even spoiler-tagged on the page. Apparently, everyone with a halfway passing familiarity with the series or Nintendo games in general knows this. I didn't. But that doesn't mean I'd have the right to be upset that it was spoiled, since it's such a well-known fact in the target demographic.
System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit^^^ How are you determining which is the majority and which is the minority, though? I know you're considering your side to be in the majority, but are you really?
And frankly, this DOES pertain to the conversation at hand. I can tell you, when I first found out that Bucky was the Winter Soldier it was a big deal for me. I was astounded. I think other people deserve to experience that twist in the same way, and I don't think "I'm tired of typing [[spoiler:" is a valid reason to ruin someone else's enjoyment of a good twist.
Heck, even in blatant cases of It Was His Sled... I wish I could have watched Star Wars just once, not knowing that Vader was Luke's father. The biggest WHAM moment of one of the greatest movie series of all time was ruined for me when I was still just a little kid, and I hate that.
That's the reason why I say it.
Like I said, I haven't seen the movie so I don't know how it treats this twist. If the movie itself doesn't treat The Winter Soldier's identity as a spoiler, then no, we won't either. But if it DOES, then you have no right to spoil it and ruin the movie for everyone else just because you're tired of using spoiler tags.
Edited by wrm5^^ You're saying because I don't live in the states, where most movie marketing for Hollywood movies takes place, I am not the target demographic, and deserve to have things spoiled? Not everyone watches all the promotional accoutrements before watching a movie.
Edited by muddycurve424 Black is Order, White is Chaos.Also, Super Mario Bros 2 being All Just a Dream was never really that much of a twist. Not like Winter Soldier or Doomsday. Knowing that that game took place in the dream world of Subcon doesn't really change your appreciation of it. Having one of the bigger WHAM moments in comic booksspoiled for you, on the other hand...
Edited by wrm5it was a big deal for me. I was astounded. I think other people deserve to experience that twist in the same way
And I bet you weren't on the trope page for The Winter Soldier prior to seeing the film.
I wish I could have watched Star Wars just once, not knowing that Vader was Luke's father. The biggest WHAM moment of one of the greatest movie series of all time was ruined for me when I was still just a little kid, and I hate that.
So why do we disagree? You just admitted that the way things work, some people are gonna be gypped out of a good twist. Those people are in the minority, though. You can't satisfy and/or cater to EVERYONE, and we, the majority, the people who build the pages for these works from NOTHING, shouldn't be hindered by a single-digit percentage of people who would be bothered by this.
The site's policy says that spoilers that are a sentence long or more, or spoilers that take over a sentence, are superfluous. But then things like this make it so we can't discuss Rogers' fight with Bucky without censoring Bucky's name every time The Winter Soldier is mentioned and you want to talk about the dynamic between Bucky and The Winter Soldier, and how Captain America fits into The Winter Soldier's backstory and their relationship in the film.
See? Superfluous.
They can't have it both ways. They need to pick one. The choice seems obvious to me.
^^ You're saying because I don't live in the states, where most movie marketing for Hollywood movies takes place, I am not the target demographic, and deserve to have things spoiled? Not everyone watches all the promotional accoutrements before watching a movie.
I'm saying that's what the page for It Was His Sled says. I'm not saying anything that TV Tropes doesn't appear to also endorse.
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitWhy do we disagree? Did you even read what I wrote? I disagree with you because I don't like big twists being spoiled. I know that people will spoil twists, that doesn't mean I like it.
What I'm getting here, basically, is that your argument is based on It's All About Me. You know the twist already, so you don't care if it's spoiled for anyone else. You're tired of typing out spoiler tags and you think your annoyance is more important than other peoples' enjoyment of the film.
If this isn't the case, then give us a good reason why we should stop caring about spoilers.
Nobody said to stop caring about spoilers.
I'm watching Arrow right now, and I'm not even through Season 2. And guess what? I'm staying away from the Arrow page on this site because even though the spoiler tags are there, some spoilers will inevitably be revealed because they're obvious to the target demographic.
You agree that people will get cheated out of experiencing twists while watching a work. I'm saying you need to agree that it's just too bad for those people, and to also realize that it can happen to anyone, so no one really has a right to be upset over It Was His Sled-esque spoilers being revealed to them if they're on a site like this, or in general, really.
If it was all about me, I'd want all the spoilers I haven't seen to be hidden, no matter how obvious, but the spoilers I know of to be free for the world to see. No. I don't care if someone tells me that Snape kills Dumbledore, or Bruce Willis is a ghost. I haven't read/seen either work, but even if I planned to, Memetic Mutation has led to me being unable to legitimately experience those twists, through no fault of my own. It happens. Oh, well.
Edited by RayAP9 System Specs: GPU, CPU, Dell Inspiron laptop, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bitThis back-and-forth needs to stop.
I do not see how that spoiler is It Was His Sled-worthy, at any rate.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynmanjust a side-note, since someone asked who reads the pages without having seen the show, i do. thats one of the main ways i find new stories to read, to see if they look interesting.
although its a moot point since i dont actualy care about spoilers. i alwyas leave spoilers visible anyway.
that said, I'd say hide his name in the main description and then put something like Spoiler Warning: From here on the identity of the Winter Soldier will not be hidden above the tropes.
Maybe we should reconsider having spoiler tags. I can understand their use for when we started as a small group of fans creating, essentially, a bunch of interlinked fan pages. They are important to a lot of fansite interactions, however tvtropes isn't that anymore. It's grown into being a web reference site for tropes that exist in all works, and it is well known for documenting exactly what tricks works use. Spoilers are now our stock-in-trade, and everyone knows it. With the new look, I think it is time to strip the spoiler code. It is an artefact of a previous phase of the wiki, and not really relevant to the vast chunk of new users. We're not that small cosy bunch of fans and fansites anymore, we're as mainstream now. That's not a complaint, btw, that is a compliment to all the tropers here. And in point of fact, many fan-wikis and fansites now eschew hiding spoilers these days, and just use generic warnings.
As for the specific example. I noticed we said starring Sebastian as The Winter Soldier, which is more spoilerific than actually calling him Bucky. For all the readers know, Bucky is showing up in flashbacks, a common plot device that might be expected in a man-out-of-time movie, mentioning he is the winter soldier is far more spoiler-esque.
Edited by CrypticMirror"I'd say hide his name in the main description"
No spoiler tags above the example line, guys.
Now, not mentioning all that is perfectly kosher.
And I've read a bunch of stuff without seeing/reading/listening to it first. Most of my knowledge of Doctor Who that's not from my friends who are fans are from this site. The only time I've ever made myself sad by spoiling myself was by reading the ending to Mystery Case Files: Madame Fate, and that was on Wikipedia, and I really should have been more careful -but who could have expected that!
Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry PratchettIf folks want to discuss spoiler policy, please take it to Wiki Talk. Ask The Tropers is not made for extensive discussions as they crowd out all other issues.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanQuestion: Is this being taken to the forums? Because the ongoing Snark-to-Snark Combat makes it seem like the conversation isn't over yet. If so, a link would be nice because I'm not finding a thread yet.
~randomsurfer made a good point about this YKTTW
, so I think discussion should take place there. The core issue here isn't really over Bucky Barnes, but if mentioning actors is a spoiler.
And Ray took it to the forums anyway. We probably were doing this at the same time. :)
Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Are there certain events in a given work that are technically spoilers, but don't really have to be tagged as such on the wiki?
For example, Captain America: The Winter Soldier. The fact that The Winter Soldier is Bucky Barnes. His actor is listed as Sebastian Stan (and was before the movie hit theaters), and anyone who's even semi-interested in Captain America comics probably knows this. Anyone who's looking up the film on here and reading the different pages (WMG, Headscratchers, Fridge, etc.) probably falls into one of the aforementioned groups or has simply seen the movie already. This "spoiler" in particular could almost be the codifier for It Was His Sled.
Do we really have to even bother with tagging things like this as spoilers?
Edited by RayAP9