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Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2014-09-02 21:41:46

It is that tropes should never be potholed in quotes. Works may be directly linked, but potholes should be avoided.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
2014-09-03 10:16:38

And because it was apparently an issue for at least one person in the forum thread discussing page quotes, to make things clear the prohibition against trope potholes is only for quotes put at the top of a work/trope page. Quotes as part of an entry or on the Quotes page are fine, as long as the potholes are relevant, and not someone trying to be cutesy with an All Blue Entry.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
MathsAngelicVersion Since: Mar, 2013
2014-09-03 12:23:33

What about consoles, creators and companies, like the pothole to PlayStation 3 in the page quote on DarthWiki.Idiot Programming?

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2014-09-03 12:36:29

Nope, both of those are invalid. If the quote directly cites the Play Station 3, you can leave it a bluelink, but those potholes are verboten.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2014-09-03 12:41:19

So for example, if a page quote is "Boy, Yakuza 5 is the best game on the Play Station 3," that would be kosher.

However, a page quote like "Man, the best game on my favorite console isn't coming stateside" has incorrect potholes in each case.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
MathsAngelicVersion Since: Mar, 2013
2014-09-03 12:45:31

Okay, thanks. The potholes have been removed.

ryanasaurus0077 Since: Jul, 2009
2014-09-03 12:47:31

So bluelinking Take Over the World but not potholing Pinky's line to Once an Episode would be all right? Just making sure.

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2014-09-03 13:21:52

Don't bluelink tropes, regardless. I suppose an exception could be made if the quoted source was intentionally and specifically calling out the trope, but that's the sort of gray area that leads inexorably to misuse by overly enthusiastic tropers.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
2014-09-06 03:56:00

If we really were seriously about this rule, it would mean to clean up 20% of tropes pages, starting with What the Hell, Hero?.

I think it's playful which should be a high priority for using this website, no?

Edited by eroock
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
2014-09-06 08:22:32

That the policy isn't always followed simply means that not all violations have been caught. This isn't exactly a tiny wiki, even if not up to the ZOMGWTFBBQ proportions of The Other Wiki.

(And those WTHH potholes are now ex-potholes. :P )

As for "playful", as FE's forum sig puts it: "Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty", and those are listed in descending order of importance.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
captainmarkle Since: Feb, 2011
2014-09-06 14:04:38

Let me get this straight. Don't link tropes in to quotes is the basic point? If I'm wrong my apologies.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
captainmarkle Since: Feb, 2011
2014-09-06 14:39:31

Alright. I have a few pages of my own to clear up, then. Thanks.

EDIT 2: Wait, I just read an earlier post about how it's fine in an entry but NOT at the top of a page. I have just made several mistakes. Give me a moment.

Edited by captainmarkle Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
2014-09-08 11:54:22

>>"Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty"

Why does this apply to quotes only and not, let's say, captions? I don't see the bigger picture.

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2014-09-08 12:44:57

Clear Concise Witty applies to everything, but it is also not an excuse to chainsaw indiscriminately. Rational thought needs to be employed, along the lines of the following tests:

  1. Does it accurately illustrate/describe the thing in question?
  2. Is it unnecessarily wordy or elaborate?
  3. Is it amusing? Interesting? Does it hold the attention of the reader?

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
2014-09-09 14:00:50

How do potholed quotes violate the above?

Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2014-09-09 16:08:18

A page quote, particularly for a trope, needs to be able to stand on its own without help. If a quote doesn't make sense unless potholed, than it's not a good quote for the page/trope.

I personally brought one quote to the General Page Quotes Discussion thread several months ago because it was weak even when potholed, and without the potholes, it didn't apply to the trope at all.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
2014-09-10 01:10:23

I see, but then we must distinguish between quotes that only make sense in context and those that stand on their own (with potholes added for fun). Potholes have a way of widening my understanding for tropes, it's one of my favorite features on here. And it saddens me to see it partially suppressed for dubious reasons.

Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2014-09-10 19:47:24

The reasons are not dubious. The page quote must stand as an example of the trope on its own, without requiring hovering over blue links to 'get' it. That's very straightforward.

If you read through the General Quotes Discussion thread, there have been more than a few quotes pulled for requiring context to understand, rather than, again, standing on their own.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
Kuruni (Long Runner)
2014-09-10 20:07:24

I suggest add this to Sinkhole.

Edited by Kuruni
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
2014-09-11 03:26:04

Candi, the quote from What the Hell, Hero? stood on its own, but Nohbody removing the potholes nonetheless (see above). Who decided if a quote is self-containing? This subjectivity in the rule definition is going to cause trouble.

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2014-09-11 04:06:02

Like many other such issues on the wiki; someone makes a decision, if nobody disagrees it stays and if someone does disagree we have a discussion on it.

Also, if the quote on What the Hell, Hero? stands on its own (and it does) then that is further argument in favour of the removal of the potholes in it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Kuruni (Long Runner)
2014-09-11 06:21:25

Just need one thing to clear up. Since Quotes subpage is pretty much collection of page quotes, this apply there as well, right?

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2014-09-11 06:23:48

I don't really see the point in going through the effort of policing quotes pages for pothole use. I mean, sure, it's consistent with the policy, but it's an awful lot of effort for very little value. I certainly won't tell you not to do it, though. That's just my personal opinion.

Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Candi Since: Aug, 2012
2014-09-11 07:04:17

Usually over in the General Page Quote Discussion thread, we only worry about removing potholes in a quote on the page quote if it's going to be used on the main page. Since potholes are allowed in quotes down in the examples, and usually some to all of the quotes on the quotes page are reflected between the main and quotes page, there's not a whole lot of reason to remove the potholes unless All Blue Entry or somesuch is violated.

erook, Nohbody removed the potholes after it was mentioned in the GPQD thread. That's where quote replacement, alerts for potholes, and moderator thoughts on the quotes, both with and without mod hats, are brought up and discussed. When something is present to the Troper Hive Mind in the proper thread with proper discussion, and changed according to guidelines, rules, or Hive Mind decision, the person who ultimately does the edit is just the one doing the work, not the one making the decision. (And Nohbody does a crapload of work, particularly in the Real Life Section Maintenance thread.)

I also have to agree with Septimus that if the What the Hell, Hero? quote was fine on its own, it didn't need the potholes.

Incidentally, I have never seen anything that says that the quote at the top of the page can't be part of an example lower down and potholed, as long as it follows the rules for writing an example. I know that when the tropers in the thread have had to replace bad quotes, ones from the page in question have been used.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2014-09-11 07:13:48

Good point. It seems more like a style choice for the page quote, not a rule for quotes in general.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
2014-09-12 01:08:47

>>Nohbody removed the potholes after it was mentioned in the GPQD thread.

Can you point me to it, couldn't find it.

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)
2014-09-12 03:07:48

I see the issue. The potholing rule was only mentioned in Ask The Tropers, not in the thread.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
2014-09-12 22:26:16

In regards to policing, I don't go actively seeking them out, but when something comes to my attention I take a look at its page. "[C]omes to my attention" includes here in ATT, forum mentions (a lot of my non-watchlist edits are from getting distracted from a forum post by a wick :P ), or that I come across it when looking to address another issue.

As for the rule regarding page quote potholes, while WTHH didn't come up in the GPQD thread, in the past the issue has been brought up there. It's not exactly a small thread, but using the google site search to search for "quote pothole" will bring up a bunch of hits on the subject from that thread.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
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