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... I think the fact they moved Armor Is Useless to YMMV is weirder.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.@Fast Eddie: You're very right. I shouldn't have deleted that, and I apologize. Thank you for lifting the suspension.
@Larkmarn: New version is much better. The original entry was an opinion that most readers wouldn't agree upon, making it much more appropriate for YMMV.
That's...not really what the YMMV tab is for. I mean, it's kinda worded like it would be, but it isn't. As far as I know, the YMMV tab is only for YMMV items explicitly marked as such.
If there's a case of varying mileage on a non-YMMV trope entry, you're supposed to take it to discussion, come to a consensus and then abide by it.
The header for the YMMV page states "These are what we call the 'YMMV items.' Things that some people find in this work. We call them 'your mileage might vary' because not everyone sees these things in the same way."
That seems like it is exactly what that page is for: anything Trope entry that is a contested or fringe opinion, as opposed to factual. If that's not the case, then the actual purpose of the page should be made clear. Perhaps, for the sake of those who aren't involved in deeper parts of the site, there should be an explanation to the effect of what you said on the YMMV page itself? Perhaps, as well, a link to the site for such discussions?
Edited by KkatmanThat's not correct. There are specific tropes that are designated YMMV; those and only those belong there. It's not just any entry that someone doesn't agree with.
Armor Is Useless is either a trope present in the work (possibly played with in some way) or it is not. There is no argument.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"@Kkat: Note that YMMV tropes are specifically noted on the top of their page. Look at Narm, for example. "Please don't list this on a work's page as a trope. Examples can go on the work's YMMV tab."
If you want to contest that Armor Is Useless should be a YMMV trope, you can open a discussion in the Trope Repair Shop
.
@Fighteer
In that case, is it appropriate for Armor Is Useless to be in the Fallout Equestria page when armor is not useless in the story?
The trope has been added because a few dissenters believe that armor is not protective often enough, but this is a far cry from saying that armor has no value. On the contrary, armor has both thematic and functionally defensive importance in the story. Thematically, within the first chapters, the protagonist is informed that one of the most needed things for survival is armor. The armor she acquires actually plays a pivotal role two chapters later when she is mistaken for a member of a hostile group because of it. Later, a major subplot revolves around the creation of a new type of armor and the development of weapons to counter it.
Functionally, there are many times when protective armor is portrayed as being the decisive factor. (I could list examples, if necessary.) Moreso, the magical shields used by one faction within the story are considered one of their most terrifying advantages, and the characters are often required to go to great lengths to overcome those defenses.
The detractors argument for Armor Is Useless comes largely from the fact that not every character uses armor and that late in the story the characters have acquired weaponry designed specifically to counter the armor of their enemies. The advanced armor of another faction makes them particularly fearsome opponents, requiring the characters to utilize special ammo and other precious resources in order to have a chance against them.
If it is a "yes" or "no" trope, shouldn't Armor Is Useless be removed entirely from the page then?
@Unknownlight
The nature of the trope does not suggest that it really deserves to be a YMMV trope in and of itself. Rather, it should be a "yes" or "no" trope. However, if it is, then I would argue that it has been misapplied in regards to Fallout Equestria.
Edited by KkatmanYour first point about armor having symbolic value isn't relevant to the trope. If characters' armor doesn't protect them from harm, then Armor Is Useless is in effect, regardless of anything else.
With that said, I don't think Fallout: Equestria applies in this case. Armor, and protective shields, and whatever else is used in the story, does have effect, it's just not perfect protection. And that's fine, because that's realistic. Armor Is Useless is supposed to be about when characters wearing armor don't seem to have any advantage over characters that don't.
I'll cast a vote for removing it.
@Fighteer
"Armor Is Useless is either a trope present in the work (possibly played with in some way) or it is not. There is no argument."
What is the appropriate method of dealing with a trope that is not a YMMV trope, but that some people want to put on a page despite what others consider clear evidence that it is inappropriate?
Really, the page's Discussion page is the first place you should bring it.
Honestly Kkat, the reason that you bringing it to the YMMV was so worrying to me was A: It showed a lack of understand of what YMMV was for (IE the page for YMMV items, not tropes people are disputing), and B: More importantly, it demonstrated ownership issues as well as a lack of understanding that Tropes Are Not Bad. Armor Is Useless in particular is not that negative a trope (it prevents a Boring Invincible Hero, for one), but you reacted so defensively with not only a Justifying Edit (which is bad) but moving it to YMMV, which is against the rules.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.No one ever, ever checks the discussion pages. I've completely given up using them. =/
Larkman, I agree that Kkat shouldn't have moved the trope to YMMV, nor have been so snippy about it. In the interest of resolving this discussion, though, do you think that Armor Is Useless should be included on the the page?
Edited by UnknownlightBased on the example, yes. It's justified, but it winds up being effectively useless due to what seems to be a Lensman Arms Race.
... and use the discussion pages. You have people who habitually check the Recent Discussions link, as well as people who start getting into edit wars. P Ms and ATT are last resorts.
Hell, a thread in Trope Talk is better than P Ms or ATT.
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.But the heroes are quite routinely saved by their barding, and Steel Rangers and especially alicorns are much bigger threats that always need a lot more firepower to take down, mostly because of their armor and shields. I'm not sure how the trope is supposed to apply.
"You have people who habitually check the Recent Discussions link"
Okay, I believe you, but I seriously have never had a single person respond to anything I've posted in Discussions. Maybe that's changed in the past few years. The Trope Talk forum is good, I forgot about it.
Edited by Unknownlight@Fighteer
In this case, obviously, discussion with the person who added the trope is not going to yield consensus. Bringing the conversation here, then, is the correct resort? How long do these conversations usually remain before a moderator makes a decision on a trope?
@Larkmarn
I would contest that I was "snippy" about moving it. Obviously, I misunderstood the nature of YMMV. It was a completely understandable misunderstanding considering the misleading description of the YMMV page and the lack of any clear instructions otherwise. However, when I moved the trope, all I said was "Moved to YMMV". That isn't "snippy" — the trope is factually incorrect and does not belong on a page for factual "yes or no" tropes. "Moved to YMMV" is a brief, polite explanation of the change. The only way it could be "snippy" is if you read snippiness into it; and that proves the troper who does so is predisposed against me, and attempted conversation with him would be pointless.
It also wasn't "defensive". I didn't move the trope because I thought it somehow hurt the perception of the story by being there. I moved the trope because it was objectively inaccurate, and I believed that the YMMV page was the place for tropes that are objectively inaccurate but that some tropers might believe apply anyway. You have a disturbing tendency to try to read the worst motivations into my actions.
Edited by KkatmanI don't know about "snippy": it's hard to accurately read tone in text.
I do agree with Larkman's opinion on Armour Is Useless, because I'm not seeing an argument that Heroes without armour take more damage than the heroes wearing the barding. The trope doesn't mean the armour does nothing in the work.... the trope is about the armour being no more effective than not having armour.
Unless plot-armoured characters without real armour are getting hurt worse than characters without the armour, they might as well not even bother putting the armour on.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.@crazysamaritan: Among the main cast, SteelHooves (the character with the most armor) gets hurt the least, and Littlepip (wears some armor) gets hurt the most. Admittedly, Velvet and Xenith wear less armor than Littlepip, but that's because Littlepip throws herself head-first into fights while the other two are more reserved.
Among the enemies, the most threatening (and the ones it takes the main cast the longest to kill) are the Steel Rangers and the alicorns (and the hellhounds, but they're hard to kill for other reasons). Steel Rangers have heavy armor, and alicorns have magic shields that protect them, making most weapons the heroes have ineffective. Alicorns sometimes have to be defeated by tricking or forcing them to drop their shield, because firepower often doesn't work.
I honestly have no idea how Armor Is Useless is supposed to apply to this fic.
Edited by Unknownlight"Among the main cast, Steel Hooves (the character with the most armor) gets hurt the least, and Littlepip (wears some armor) gets hurt the most. Admittedly, Velvet and Xenith wear less armor than Littlepip, but that's because Littlepip throws herself head-first into fights while the other two are more reserved. "
Okay. That sounds averted, then.
EDIT: Unless Lilpip is getting hit with anti-armour weapons and surviving that, then the trope would be Downplayed and Justified by the arms race.
Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.Littlepip is a bad example because she has industrial-strength Plot Armor. The world of FO:E is an over-the-top arms race where Anyone Can Die, and Littlepip is a first-person POV protagonist, so she has to live no matter what insane situation the plot calls for. This reaches levels of absurdity when Littlepip survives being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion.
For every other character, things work far more realistically.
If it is moved to the article discussion, how does it get resolved? Clearly, the original trope poster isn't going to agree that the trope is inapplicable. Are moderators viewing the article discussions and making verdicts? Or, after discussion, are tropers allowed to remove it themselves? Or does it just get discussed there for a while with no resolution and then brought back here?
Edited by KkatmanIt gets brought to the discussion page, preferably with an invitation and link
for additional opinions. Any troper is then able to discuss what should be done to the example; whether it should be included, removed, revised, etc. If a majority consensus is achieved after a reasonable amount of time then anyone can perform the agreed upon action.
Also, if it gets readded, pull it and leave an edit reason saying "See Fanfic.Fallout Equestria Discussion". If it gets readded again, use the report button under the "Tools" tab on the sidebar menu and let the mods handle it.
Edited by StarSword Trust me, I'm an engineer!

Tropers/Kkatman has been deleting and heavily modifying entries in Fallout: Equestria, leaving snippy comments as their edit reason. Many of the edited entries, like my recent Narm entry that they have now deleted twice, are legitimate so far as I can tell.
Is this a case of an overprotective creator, and if so can something be done?