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Amonimus (Sergeant)
2025-02-09 13:53:01

It's closer to Natter since it's commenting on a prior example instead of correcting it. It's also

  • incorrectly indented (If an example needs clarification, it needs to be amended and not appended, lone sub-bulletes are not allowed),
  • Walkthrough Mode (for gameplay tropes, stating that something is present is sufficient, explaining how something is with specifics is off-topic)
  • While at it, "count as this" is bad wording since there is no "this" subject in the sentence. The original example is also neglects to mention if Chapter 5 is actually bonus or not, so noone can tell if it fits the trope to begin with.
  • If Chapter 6 counts, it should be a separate example.

In short, if Chapter 5 is not Brutal Bonus Level, then its mention should be removed. If it is, the details are irrelevant.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Bomber-Boi (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
2025-02-09 13:59:18

That's the thing. Chapter 5 does count as a Brutal Bonus Level before it's unlocked, because you have to put in special effort to get there, but once it's unlocked, it no longer qualifies because it becomes part of the normal gameplay progression. It’s neither a straight example nor a straight non-example.

Vilui Since: May, 2009
2025-02-09 13:59:30

Also, the second paragraph is a Partial Context Example. The entire paragraph gives context on whether Chapter 5 is optional, which is one of two criteria for Brutal Bonus Level. Nothing at all is said about the other criterion — whether or not it is brutally hard.

Bomber-Boi (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
2025-02-09 14:12:49

Chapter 5 is one of the final levels in a Nintendo Hard game. While it's not that hard for veterans of the game to get through, it tends to bend newcomers over its knee and spank them without mercy. So it's hard, but a far cry from being the hardest challenge in the game.

As for being optional, it's optional before it's unlocked, but stops being optional once it's unlocked (though there are routes that diverge from the "normal" progression and terminate without ever going there, it isn't optional on routes that include it).

Edited by Bomber-Boi
Ngamer01 Since: Oct, 2010
2025-02-09 15:49:28

Note: I'm not a Binding player, but are we sure this isn't just a case of secret levels since chapter 5 sounds like it counts for progression, but it's hidden until you reach it somehow.

Brutal bonus levels must be completely optional even after unlocking and must be very difficult. If a hidden, hard level counts for progression after unlocking, then I don't believe it to be a brutal bonus level.

I remember some Sonic games had hidden final levels that don't show until you meet the criteria of unlocking them. They weren't brutal bonus levels because they held the true final bosses. The talk about Binding's chapter 5 is just reminding me of some of the older Sonic games.

Bomber-Boi (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
2025-02-09 18:18:22

The comparison to hidden final levels in Sonic games is actually pretty spot-on. All of the endgame levels in The Binding of Isaac count for progression in regards to different routes. (There are two versions of Chapter 5, two versions of Chapter 6 that require taking a certain item to the matching Chapter 5, and three more unique endgames (Void, Corpse, and Ascent/Home) that have more esoteric requirements to be met during the run. There's also a secondary True Final Boss, Mega Satan, who can be fought in either version of Chapter 6 instead of or in addition to its final boss, but that's a secondary branch of Chapter 6, not its own level.)

Chapter 6 barely counts as "Brutal Bonus Level" in my eyes because yes, you can end your run at Chapter 5 and never see it without having to go to one of the three "super endgames" instead, but the requirement to get to Chapter 6 is incredibly simple to meet once it's unlocked. Void, Corpse, and Ascent/Home are much better fits, but even they technically fail the "completely optional" requirement, as they all culminate in fighting a True Final Boss. There's still a Brutal Bonus Level in the form of Hush's stage, Blue Womb, which is easier to bypass than to enter, but the only things you get to do there are collect a few items and fight Hush.

Edited by Bomber-Boi
Bomber-Boi (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
2025-02-12 07:29:37

So, to recap: going by the "level must be optional" requirement of Brutal Bonus Level, it looks like Blue Womb (??? in-game) is the only actual Brutal Bonus Level in The Binding of Isaac, with all other candidates being more along the lines of "secret final level". Should I rewrite the page again to account for this?

Ngamer01 Since: Oct, 2010
2025-02-12 15:40:57

^ If nobody else has updated things, I think that sounds fine. If you're not sure you want to push a change live just yet, feel free to use a sandbox to propose the changing of the Binding page plus the relevant crosswicks.

Bomber-Boi (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
2025-02-13 10:01:05

There is one thing that's currently bugging me, though. The only thing I initially changed about the Brutal Bonus Level entry (besides the long semi-paragraph about Chapter 5 being a potential edge case) is changing the described "standard ending point" from Chapter 4 to Chapter 5. Chapter 5, Chapter 6, Void, Corpse, and Ascent were all listed as Brutal Bonus Levels before I started monkeying with the page like this. I'm not quite sure who initially added the Brutal Bonus Level entry or when, so I have to presume that there was some sort of rationale behind listing them as examples. So I'm actually a bit uncertain about whether or not the existing entry should be thrown out.

Edited by Bomber-Boi
MurlocAggroB Since: May, 2015
2025-02-13 10:21:34

I would rewrite the example like this:

  • Brutal Bonus Level:
    • Sheol/Cathedral are downplayed examples. They can be accessed if you manage to get a Devil/Angel room respectively after beating Mom's Heart, allowing you to take on one more floor and potentially get more unlocks. However, after beating It Lives! for the first time, the floors always spawn in place of ending and are therefore no longer bonuses.
    • Blue Womb is a special optional floor that can be reached by beating It Lives! in less than 30 minutes. It contains four chests, two Treasure Rooms, a shop, and the Superboss Hush. Beating Hush allows you to continue your run to your choice of either Sheol, Cathedral, or The Void.

Edited by MurlocAggroB regulation pigeon
Bomber-Boi (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
2025-02-13 10:47:08

That's a good idea, but it's hard not to treat Chapter 6, Void, Corpse, and Ascent as Brutal Bonus Levels if Chapter 5 has even a hint of that status, or at least that's what I think the original creator of the entry was going for. I recently asked for more clarification and second opinions on the "Is this an example?" thread and the Binding of Isaac thread (directing both to this ATT), because I think we need input from Tropers who regularly play The Binding of Isaac to properly resolve this uncertainty.

Edited by Bomber-Boi
Bomber-Boi (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
2025-03-09 11:53:04

It's been several days and I haven't gotten much feedback in the forums. Is there a better way to attract the attention of other Tropers who are qualified to resolve this issue?

HoloMew151 Since: Jun, 2021
2025-03-09 15:56:38

^^ I've been playing The Binding of Isaac for a while. A few areas have the hidden factor - for example, before Repentance Plus, the only way to ensure the route to Void was by defeating Hush, with a lowered chance for the other routes. The difficulty factor can be argued as well for them - for example, the Chest and Dark Room almost all have rooms with bosses from previous floors on them compared to the weaker enemies from beforehand in the run. However, I don't think they count really because they all contain final bosses and lead to different endings - i.e. it's more than just a bonus.

Edited by HoloMew151
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