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Make Private (For security bugs or stuff only for moderators)

HTD Since: Mar, 2013
2024-09-01 07:54:38

Anyone? I don't think I can fix the issue myself since the original edits were all made by me.

Ultimatum (Old as dirt)
2024-09-01 08:16:41

Try private messaging them

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
cannen144 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2024-09-01 08:22:25

It definitely looks like misuse to me. Have you sent them notifiers for grammar?

HTD Since: Mar, 2013
2024-09-03 08:41:39

I did but received no response, even though they've made other edits in the meantime. Also apparently the other example they added is misuse, according to the Is this an example? thread.

Edited by HTD
HTD Since: Mar, 2013
2024-09-06 19:34:28

Bumping this since they've made some further edits but still haven't responded to the notifiers I sent in any way. They've also started deleting examples without an edit reason here and here (granted, I'm not really sure if the examples are valid either).

DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2024-10-24 10:35:27

I would like to add for posterity that I did not recieve any message regarding the Soviets, only one on a typo of an interim edit that I myself removed as part of a second pass over the entries, which I had considered an adequate response.

As for the Flying Brick entries... they're clear cases of misuse...it's a type of Superhero, and the historic misuse of applying it to durable aircraft (A-10, and so on) have been removed from the Trope Page itself.

As for the exact nature of the Harbinger's, that was me trying to be conciliatory. Here's what really happened.

HTD updated the misused Flying Brick entry as follows

  • Flying Brick: The Harbinger is the third most durable aircraft in the game by default; the Advanced Aeronautics upgrade raises it to second place (above the Kirov Airship, second only to the Giga-Fortress)

I modified this to the following with the missing (unintentionally removed) word in brackets.

  • Flying Brick: The Harbinger is the third most [durable] air unit in the game by default; taking Advanced Aeronautics upgrades it to second place, with ever-so-slightly more hp than the Kirov.

The purpose of this edit was to clarify that the difference in durability between the Harbinger and the Kirov, which was about 4%, was not significant.

Later on, I fixed this by removing the entire entry and integrating it into Lightning Bruiser, to avoid hurt feelings over the trope.

  • Lightning Bruiser: If comparing each of the faction's heavy bombardment air units is taken into consideration, the Harbinger Gunship is easily the fastest in terms of speed and mobility, with a more conventional weapon that loses out somewhat in sheer destructive potential compared to the Kirov's bombs and the Giga Fortress's Breath Weapon, but is still more than enough to leave their mark on anything they're sent to obliterate. Without Advanced Aeronautics, the Harbinger is noticably less durable than the Kirov, but upgraded, it'll actually have marginally more health than it's Soviet Counterpart (5000 baseline, 6250 upgraded, vs the Kirov's 6000), if still less than the monstrously excessive Giga Fortress.

Into

  • Lightning Bruiser: If comparing each of the faction's heavy bombardment air units, the Harbinger Gunship is easily the fastest in terms of overall mobility, with a more conventional weapon that loses out somewhat in sheer destructive potential compared to the Kirov's bombs and the Giga Fortress's Breath Weapon, but is still more than enough to leave their mark on anything they're sent to obliterate and while being harder to avoid compared to the overly telegraphed Giga Fortress and zero range Kirov. Defensively, the Harbinger is the third most durable air unit in the game by default; taking Advanced Aeronautics upgrades it to second place, with ever-so-slightly more hp than the Kirov. (5000 baseline, 6250 upgraded, vs the Kirov's 6000), if still less than the monstrously excessive Giga Fortress.

WRT the incomplete fixes, mea culpa.

DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2024-10-24 11:01:30

On the final topic, of whether or not the Conscript is "Heavily Armored", calling it "still rather lightly armored" by the game's standard is a gross mischaracterization.

Infantry in RA2 have three possible armor types, None, Flak, and Plate. The vast majority of infantry have None/no armor, with flak otherwise being mostly reserved for hero units and semi-heroes like the SEAL, and Plate for explicitly power-armored units like Tesla Troopers and Desolators or the hulklike Brute. The jump between None and Flak (25% EHP) is markedly greater than that between Flak and Plate (roughly 12%)

With 125 hp and Flak armor, which takes 80% damage from most anti-infantry damage types, such as Small Arms (SA in the game files), Conscripts are significantly more durable than the vast majority of infantry in the game, and this fact is integral to their use in high level play.

That said, I'm willing to drop this topic for the time being.

Edited by DarthWalrus
HTD Since: Mar, 2013
2024-10-24 16:52:42

I said I wasn't sure if the Flying Brick example was valid or not (and with the removal of the Real Life section of the trope page, I'm now sure that it was not). My issue with the Harbinger edit was the use of the verb upgrade, which sounds very wrong in this context (should be raise instead).

As for the Conscript, I do consider Flak armour 'light' (versus None, aka not armoured at all, and Plate, which does qualify for Heavily Armored Mook, and that's before you get to vehicles, which are more 'heavily armoured' than infantry in general). In this context, using Heavily Armored Mook for Flak armour (roughly a third of all infantry in the game) is a stretch.

DarthWalrus Since: Jan, 2015
2024-10-24 17:27:53

Raise really doesn't sound right, if you ask me. "Upgrade" just fits more naturally.

For Flak Armor, saying "None" really means not wearing any form of armor at all disregards that the most common unit with the armor type, the GI, very clearly is wearing a significant amount of armor, as are many other units with the type such as Chrono Legionaires, Flak Troopers, and Guardian GI, just not to the same degree as the larger, bulkier Conscript.

None: Initiate, Engineer, Guardian GI, Flak Trooper, Crazy Ivan, Attack Dog, Chrono Legionaire, Sniper, Virus, Yuri Clone, Rocketeer. The various Commando/Ivan combinations from stolen tech.

Flak: Conscript, Tanya, Navy Seal, Spy(Very low health), Terrorist (even lower), Boris, Yuri Prime

Plate: Brute, Tesla Trooper and Desolator.

The only units with flak armor outside the Conscript are either hero units and those immediately adjacent, or just random squishy units with low hp and flak armor that's neither supported by their unit's design or low health value and could never be noticed outside of reading the unit files.

I'd argue Tesla and especially Desolators are overqualified. The archetypical Heavily Armored Mook by the trope page itself, is a Koopatrol, a Koopa with extra armor and that's basically it. Compared to the Rifle Infantry from the last game, or the undeployed Allied GI (to whom the Conscript is otherwise identical), the sole distinguishing factor that sets the Conscript apart is his heavier armor. He shares a level of resistance otherwise mostly reserved for highly expensive elite units, while being a lowly cannon fodder mook himself. But at this point we're quibbling details.

Like I said, I'm fine with dropping it, just arguing for the sake of it at this point.

Edited by DarthWalrus
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