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First-person, self-demonstrating articles are an absolutely terrible idea unless the character in question has an exceptionally distinctive voice - see also, Doctor Doom.
Please don't do this.
What's precedent ever done for us?Well, Ultron is a robot, and has a dinstinctive personality as well, but if it's that frowned upon, I can understand.
I bow down and retire my request.
[UPDATE: A more serious article (read: work page-like article) about Ultron in a third-person perspective is still allowed?]
Edited by AlexSora89 I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!Oh, sorry for that! By the way, I uploaded the image (because I prepared it earlier, rather than other reasons), without actually starting the article. Don't worry though - "Click the edit button to start this new page" is still all the text displayed on the Ultron article.
Edited by AlexSora89 I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!tsstevens, do you seriously go looking into these threads to derail them into something else? This is like the second or third time I've seen you do that, last time being that thing about Bret Micheals.
I'm honestly not sure about The Joker, I don't go to the page, but he is a really defining villain, and I can see why we have a page for it. If anyone has reasons to remove the page or maybe change it around, they should take it to Trope Repair Shop. This isn't really the place to start that kind of discussion.
"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - CharlatanNot at all. I simply see a thread where, for example, we shouldn't have first person character pages. So I ask if another example of a first person character page is allowed. The same as we are apparently not to have CMOA tropes for real people (such as Mark Callaway's reaction to the Montreal Screwjob.) If we condemn the idea of using first person or CMOA for real people then shouldn't examples of such things taking place be asked about? Or is there some rule that it is okay for some things but not for others? Or some rule against asking whether it is allowed?
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger Than YoursUm... guys? Before you talk about anything else, can I please know if an article (and not a self demonstrating one) about Ultron is allowed? I don't want to screw things up, as I don't want to piss off the mods by starting an article I'm not allowed to create.
Sorry, tsstevens, but I need to know that first. After I'm done with this, you can talk about The Undertaker at will.
I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!As I understand it first person character tropes are only allowed under special circumstances (such as The Joker.) The Inferno's criticism is in raising examples of first person character tropes for possible deletion.
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger Than YoursIf he's his own character with his own stories, and not tied to a single hero/group of heroes, should be fine. For instance, the Joker once had his own comic series, whilst Doctor Doom has been an antagonist for just about everyone at some point or another - they've outgrown the shadow of their original archnemeses.
What's precedent ever done for us?Okay then. Personally, I never had any interest in Ultron until four days ago, when I got to read the Ultron Unlimited storyline by Kurt Busiek and was subsequentially impressed by the character.
The request is now officially retired.
I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!It's just it seems like you go into topics to derail them into completely separate tangent, this being the second time you've done so. Once is an accident, twice is coincidence...
With the previous case, it was a case of real life politics, which is always a delicate issue, and the fact that the thing we were praising the guy for might've actually gotten a guy wrongly fired. That wasn't an abstract deal like "Should all real-life CMoA be removed?", it was a specific issue with one page.
Same thing here, Alex wanted to know if he was allowed to make a page about a character (like Doctor Doom or The Joker) and then you come in with "Well then should we delete The Joker?" That's not even related to the issue at hand.
If anything, you're abstracting the arguments too much. I'm not saying a discussion about The Joker and whether we should remove it is wrong, I'm saying this isn't the discussion for it and it honestly should go in Trope Repair Shop, or Wiki Talk, or even Trope Talk. This isn't the place where we do wide ranging policy/page decisions.
Edited by TheInferno "The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - CharlatanEarlier this was said.
First-person, self-demonstrating articles are an absolutely terrible idea unless the character in question has an exceptionally distinctive voice
So a fair question to ask would be if existing pages that are first person self demonstrating articles should be removed. The same as for example an image is condemned for being too violent and Chestburster is brought up to show why such criticism wouldn't be valid.
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger Than YoursThere is no good reason for them. Existing examples are not an argument that they are okay; this is a wiki and anything on the wiki is there only as long as other people agree they should stay. There is a decent argument for having the pages, but the first-person ones are annoying and needlessly obfuscating.
Furthermore, these pages aren't what "self-demonstrating" means. "Self-demonstrating" =/= "written in a specific voice breaking the fourth wall". The only one that actually qualifies as such is Deadpool, because it is self-demonstrating the character's defining characteristic of breaking the fourth wall.
There is in fact a precedent for cutting them; we had to do that a while ago for some comic-book character pages that were pointless. The fact that these things inspire copies in this way is a good argument for getting rid of the first-person descriptions and replacing them with an explanation of why we have trope pages for a character and when it's appropriate to make them.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!So if a page is written first person in character, and it's asked whether we can and told not to, we should rewrite the page, correct?
Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger Than YoursFor what it's worth, I agree with Treblain.
Oh, sorry for that!"
It's okay! From the tone of your post I figured that you didn't mean it that way, but I thought it was a good idea to let you know anyway.
I apologize for my comment about purposely derailing things, but there is still an issue.
The issue is not the question, the issue is take it to the forums. I'm not disagreeing with anyone here at all, I'm just saying this is not the place to discuss it.
If we start cutting pages like The Joker after a discussion like this and we'd probably get banned, because the way Ask The Tropers works, this will eventually disappear. Take it to a forum thread where more people can see and properly respond to it, as well as making it so that there's a record for it.
Actually, scratch that, I made one for you. Here, discuss as much as you'd like.
I have just one more question. If a trope or page is disputed here and there is precedence for a trope or page on what is disputed (say somehow there's an issue with listing Awesome Music from video games based on a film, and we're told that we cannot have that on the page in question, yet there are several others that do). Shouldn't we point this out?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just saying how can we condemn an idea or trope being used or suggested when it can be shown that it's already in existence?
Edited by tsstevens Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger Than YoursAlright, I can see that being relevant to this discussion. It's just the way you went about it set off a standard-issue Troll Detector which has been known for false positives =P
The thing here was the fact that it was never said that we shouldn't have first person character pages, in fact, the first reply was "First-person, self-demonstrating articles are an absolutely terrible idea unless the character in question has an exceptionally distinctive voice - see also, Doctor Doom." The Joker definitely has his own distinctive voice: if you were to ask anyone about a comic book villain, I'd bet there's a good chance they'll think of The Joker.
I never actually heard of Ultron, so I wouldn't know if he's really distinctive or not. Still, the point is that Ultron himself isn't that distinctive, voice-wise, to have a Self Demonstrating Page. I don't know if he's distinctive enough character-wise to have a page other than the one under The Avengers's either, considering the size of the list of tropes he has.
The other issue is, tsstevens, is that sometimes you go way abstract in trying to say "But we have this over here, shouldn't it go away too?" Here it was, as I said, the fact that you thought it was said that all first person character pages are bad. Like that previous case, where you brought up an issue about The Undertaker page. That's ignoring critical information from the original case. Here it was that bolded part about the distinctive voice, and in the previous case it was the recency of it, the political nature (someone might have an opinion on a show, everyone has an opinion on politics) and the fact that it was something where there was evidence that the CMoA was actually getting a guy wrongly fired! I hadn't even heard about the incident before that, but after getting information, I was kinda shocked that we even had that there.
Essentially, while pointing out other pages is fine (I've done it myself), you need to be more exacting in what you point out, and explain why it's relevant. Just saying we should delete The Joker looks really close to trollbait, while saying "Why not add this page? We have The Joker, so why not this?" conveys your point quite well and doesn't make you look like a troll.
Now, I think we've derailed this more than enough, so I think anything else between you and me should go to PM, and anything related to the discussion of whether we should have first person character pages should go here
, and anything related to the Undertaker thing... I don't know where that goes, but you could probably make another forum thread about the viability of real-life C Mo A. Let us either let this die or go back to Ultron.
Bolding so Alex sees this: We do have a character page for Ultron's group
, but it doesn't have an appropriate description for him. Maybe you could add one?
P.S. Holy wall of text, Batman!
"The fact that your food can be made into makeshift bombs alarms the Hell out of me, Scrye." - CharlatanI could add the image I've Dummied Out in the unborn Ultron article, as well as a description and a few tropes, if it helps.
I'm from Piedmont. No relation with Piedmon, mind you!

I demand permission to start a purposefully-first-person, character-based, Self-Demonstrating Article on The Avengers' Arch-Enemy Ultron.
Also, the medium is "not sure" because the media list doesn't include Comic Books, oddly enough.
[EDIT: as noted below, I apologise for the word "demand". What I meant was "request", but I came up with the first one instead. My knowledge of English is good, but nowhere near as perfect as my friends make it out to be.]
Edited by AlexSora89