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Mrph1 MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2023-06-13 04:47:17

If they're in the same continuity (and their presence isn't some sort of Mythology Gag that doesn't really include them) I think it still qualifies. There's no requirement for them to both be major characters, or to directly interact.

Edited by Mrph1
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2023-06-13 07:19:47

Could you give more concrete examples of this hypocrisy and the deletions? Because some courtesy links would be greatly appreciated to figure out whether this really counts or not.

Last time you brought up this trope the majority of the responses fell under "this is overused and often misuse" so before I agree or disagree with you, I'd love to actually know what was being deleted.

Clicking around, the first example I'm finding of these being deleted are exactly the kind of "listing every adaptation of the character without any indication there's any sort of connection that no one thought were valid examples.

I don't know if this is one of the pages that you were referring to, but even if the examples were deemed valid (which they thoroughly are not according to that resolved ATT thread), they make no attempt to justify themselves and are essentially lacking context.

You're not wrong that it's wildly inconsistently used, so some more cleanup is always appreciated.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-13 07:38:02

I'm not sure how to do the thing where you provide links to specific edits. But it's like I said, MurlocAggroB deleted the edits I made where I used Alternate Self to provide links to other character pages for media the Spider-Verse films are connected to, but has seemingly made no attempt to remove the same use of Alternate Self on those character pages (for example, I created a link the to The Spectacular Spider-Man page which has links to the Spider-Verse character pages which haven't been deleted).

Basically I created an "In General" folder for the character pages and used Alternate Self to list which characters appeared in realities (other adaptions) that the Spider-Verse films made canon. I figured it could be used in a similar way to the Other Universes folder on MCU character pages. Which by the way is another example of hypocrisy, that folder is basically used as an Alternate Self trope. So if how I used the trope was a mistake, by the same logic those folders need to be deleted.

And in regards to what I said previously, that's also an example of hypocrisy. Alternate Self was deleted from Batman (1966), but left on things like the DCEU and Titans (2018) character pages. Again, this is why we need a more clear clarification on how to use the trope because otherwise it's going to keep happening and the arguments will get worse as more and more properties use the multiverse in this way.

Edited by DarthDavros75
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2023-06-13 07:43:44

That's not what hypocrisy is. It's not hypocritical to only fix some problems that are in front of you and not get to everything.

"Personally I don't see anything wrong with using Alternate Self when a character appears in adaptions that have been confirmed to coexist as part of The Multiverse." This was directly addressed, by a mod no less, in the previous thread. "We are discussing character sheets, so it makes sense to add it if it affects something about the character. And in 99% of cases, it does not, and amounts to trivia." Do you truly think it informs Spider-Gwen's character that there's a cameo of Spectacular Spider-Man in Spider-Verse therefore presumably there's a Gwen there?

Also. Even if you can't link to a specific edit, it is not hard to link to a page. Failure to do so just makes me more questioning.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-13 07:54:48

And this is exactly my point! People are going to think the same as me, so if I'm wrong the actual Alternate Self trope page should be edited to just include a few examples that clarify this better and prevent future confusion. Right now the situation is that if people make a mistake, someone edits it without really giving a reason why it's wrong and we just have to trust their word that they're right. I don't think it's unreasonable to have one paragraph added to the page that gives a correct example of the trope and a incorrect example.

And since you brought up context, that's another issue I have with all of this. On the Tintin character pages someone once hid my edits because there wasn't enough context to them. They were fine with it once I added a little bit of context, which honestly didn't really need to be included in my opinion since it didn't really change anything. So if I said something like:

"Alternate Self: Across the Spider-Verse features cameos from characters from several different realities, giving Peter counterparts on" whatever show/film/game the Spider-Verse film connect to. Is that enough context to justify using the trope in this way?

Also by the same logic, does using Celebrity Paradox or Identical Stranger add anything to someone's character when they appear? That's basically used for trivia, especially the former, and therefore shouldn't be included. This is another example of hypocrisy, you can't accuse one trope of being used for trivia when you have another trope used in character folders that's only used to mention when an actor plays a character in a piece of media that mentions something fictional that same actor appeared in.

DragonRanger (Troper Knight)
2023-06-13 08:02:29

There's also an issue that just what is canon to what may not be the same across the board. Schizo Continuity goes into this more, but using Spider-Verse as an example: the 1967 show, Spectacular, the MCU, and other works are all canon to Spider-Verse, but is Spider-Verse and its associated works part of their canon? Marvel Studios is likely never going to acknowledge anything outside its little bubble (unless it's a special event like No Way Home). The '67 show was made 50 years before being connected to the other stuff in Spider-Verse and there's no way it could have taken everything else into account. Is it really fair to list alternates on the pages for those works when said works can't or won't acknowledge them?

Edited by DragonRanger
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-13 08:12:33

In regards to your question Dragon Ranger, I just assumed that we were treating them as being canon to each other the same way that the MCU treats Agents of SHIELD or Runaways. Those are canon but the main MCU films/shows never acknowledges them or officially declares them as non-canon.

Edited by DarthDavros75
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2023-06-13 08:14:24

So, essentially, there are three items at discussion here:

  • Should "incidental" examples of Alternate Self be included on character sheets: Resolved by the previous thread as "no."
  • Dragon Ranger's point: Should non-incidental examples of Alternate Self automatically be reciprocated? Currently unresolved.
  • Should the description of Alternate Self be updated to make clear these facts? Currently unresolved.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-13 08:23:39

So you feel that even with my example with added context, it's still a firm no even though the context pretty much clarifies that it isn't trivia and there is in-universe evidence to support it? That's fine.

But in regards to the third point, I'm not picturing a massive edit listing every possible scenario where it should or should not be used. I just think there should be something, because I genuinely think that this is going to get worse if we don't clarify the specifics of the trope.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2023-06-13 08:34:42

Like I said, that was pretty firmly resolved in the ATT you started (and have subsequently ignored). Playing "Six Degrees Of Alternate Selves" isn't really useful and no one looking at the examples with a critical eye thought it was. I don't think anyone even brought up Zero-Context Example there, it's just an added problem.

One thing you need to remember is "something is wrong there, therefore we should do the same here" is never the case for this wiki. So just because an example isn't fixed elsewhere means it should be broken here to match it, or just because another trope is bad/prone to misuse means we should duplicate it elsewhere.

Also. Provide some freaking links, or at least copy/paste examples. Something. Your complete inability to link specific pages is bordering on suspicious at this point.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-13 08:50:37

I have provided links to other pages, did you want me to keep posting them repeatedly every time I mention them? And if you're talking about doing that thing where you link to a specific edit, I told you I don't know to do that and while I could copy and past I'm trying to avoid making all these posts really big.

And no offense, but you're just being kind of useless and ignoring my points, which makes you seem suspicious. My main point is that if the trope has been misused, then clarification of the trope should be added on the page with examples. I don't understand why this isn't obvious since it would definitely save time and prevent things like this happening again.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2023-06-13 09:01:53

Specific instances or specific pages. You link to a work page and I then I have to look through several subpages and histories to find examples of these deletions. Which I comment on and specifically say I'm not sure if those are the examples you're talking about.

Then you discuss Tintin pages and... go on to say you don't understand how Zero Context Example works.

I do agree that clarifying the description is useful. It's just you are simultaneously arguing to clarify it while ignoring a resolution to a thread you yourself started. Which is odd. You're actually one of the people who has fewer excuses for misusing this or having confusion over it.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-13 09:29:38

I mentioned Tintin because you edited your first post to mention that they lacked context, which is why I created an example of Alternate Self with more context. You brought it up first. Maybe I should have been more clear, but I was just saying that sometimes what counts as enough context feels a little arbitrary and sometimes isn't necessary.

If you wanted me to be more specific you just had to say so, but I did tell you I don't know how to create a link to a specific edit so you would have ended up looking through an edit history anyway.

And my confusion was caused by how it seemed that everyone else was still misusing it, making me think that maybe the conclusion of the last thread was wrong. It's like Fandom Rivalry and Friendly Fandoms, I heard that it's impossible for fans of two adaptions to be either friends or rivals but I still see the tropes used in that way. That's why I'm arguing for a clearer explanation of the rules and for those rules to be put on the Alternate Self page.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2023-06-13 09:47:09

I did ask you to be more specific. Several times. But enough of that. Let's try to rerail this again:

So, essentially, there are three items at discussion here:

  • Should "incidental" examples of Alternate Self be included on character sheets: Resolved by the previous thread as "no."
  • Dragon Ranger's point: Should non-incidental examples of Alternate Self automatically be reciprocated? Currently unresolved.
  • Should the description of Alternate Self be updated to make clear these facts? Currently unresolved. Likely a job for the Trope Description Improvement Drive or potentially TRS. Either way, I think it should be clarified.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-18 14:42:39

Do you think characters acknowledging that another Alternate Self exists is enough to justify it's use? Examples being Superman Returns Superman mentioning the death of Returns Lois to Arrowverse Lois, Raimi Spidey mentioning his MJ while having interacted with MCU MJ, and Spider-Verse Miguel mentioning MCU Spidey? I think that as long as they are directly acknowledged to exist, and when the trope is used the specifics of the acknowledgment are mentioned, I feel like that justifies it's use.

Tabs MOD Since: Jan, 2001
2023-06-18 15:50:13

2. No, IMO. The creators of the 1967 Spider-Man show certainly didn't intend to make a 'verse that would include a property from 2023, so it's bizarre to assume Spider-Verse including it in its canon is reciprocal... barring something extraordinary like the show starting up again.

3. Possibly neither. Only the trope description drive if you want to add the specific character sheet clarification to Alternate Self that was agreed upon but need help with writing it, and TRS seems too "big" a place to hash out the trivial-seeming reciprocity question. Trope Talk maybe, if more discussion is needed.

Edited by Tabs
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-21 16:33:19

I've added a thread to Trope Talk about adding a paragraph to the Alternate Self page.

DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-21 16:34:37

Sorry I forgot to add the link.

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