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VintageEmma Since: Jan, 2023
2023-06-06 14:16:54

I would vote to re-instate the Genshin Expy examples anyway since Hoyo does reuse character designs and VAs for their other works. This strikes me as Hello being unfamiliar with Hoyo's practice than anything, though they still should've consulted the Expy cleanup thread first before deleting them unilaterally.

I can't speak for the DMC examples though since I haven't played the games.

Edited by VintageEmma
Amonimus (Sergeant)
2023-06-06 14:24:20

It looks like these weren't deleted by the discussion thread (as you've noted, there was no discussion) but by Hello83433 specifically. So I'd bring those up int he discussion thread to put them bacl.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
2023-06-06 15:10:42

I'm the person who added the entry that Dante was an Expy of both Cobra and Joseph Joestar, and I based it on this official interview where Kamiya was interviewed by EGM and says so. If anything that is the least disputable kind of example of Expy, and the only reason it might not qualify is because sometimes Expy only allows a single character to be referenced, in which case it should be moved, not deleted.

Edited by AlleyOop
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper)
2023-06-06 15:14:07

^ There is no "sometimes." An Expy is of only one character.

Hello83433 (Lucky 7)
2023-06-06 15:21:44

No need to holler, I'm here. Anyways, to address the points

DMC was addressed in the Expy cleanup thread and determined to not be an example. Expy is always one other character. I could have sworn I linked to that post in my edit reason but my mistake if I didn't.

As for the Genshin ones, I thought they were pretty obviously misuse. One of the main points of criteria is that a superficial traits similarities are not enough, nor is sharing voice actors, nor similar model/art styles which is why I linked to the mod post in the thread. The most important criteria is the narrative similarity in the work, to the point two characters who have different narrative purposes is an automatic disqualifier for expy and none of these examples discussed that, only physical similarities. Though if needed, we can move these over to the expy thread.

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010
2023-06-06 16:53:52

FWIW, I've wondered more than once whether we're missing a related trope to Expy that is simply "character is inspired in some way by another character" - which these fit a lot better.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
2023-06-06 17:07:11

Yeah, I agree that a higher-level trope like that is probably necessary. I'm also thinking it would help to have a trope for "character who is deliberately based off another character by the same creators" that isn't just Captain Ersatz (which implies they don't have the right to the character anymore, when in many cases they do) or Recurring Element (it might not be that recurring), and which is more specific than Author Appeal.

Anyway, do I have permission to add the Cobra example back as Composite Character? The source I provided unambiguously states in clear English that Kamiya was indeed influenced by Cobra and Joseph Joestar, which is the main reason it was not considered for a migration in the thread linked.

Edited by AlleyOop
DanteVin Since: Jul, 2016
2023-06-06 17:33:57

Ah well, I didn't notice that the DMC example was brought up in the thread because the Edit reason linked the first page instead of the actual parts (on page 30) discussing it, so I assumed that Hello deleted it without discussion. Yeah my bad, I guess I jumped on the gun calling it an overzealous deletion because of the link in the edit reason alone.

Initially, I was thinking that at best, the DMC example (or the Cobra part of it) could have been moved or salvaged to a different trope (or a Trivia like Word of God) instead of being completely deleted because there is a statement from the creator mentioning a bit of trivia regarding the character(s). I also noticed just now (and as mentioned by AlleyOop) that there's a Composite Character on Dante's page that mentions Cobra being an influence on Dante. Guess I should've also checked that before I made this query.


If that's really the case for the Genshin examples (especially the requirement on the narrative part), then damn, I don't know what to do with the Honkai: Star Rail Expy examples anymore (Star Rail is also made by the same devs as Genshin) since they also follow the trend of what the developer does when it comes to reusing character concepts/appearances/lore/voice actors from their older games.

This reminds me of that time in the Discussion tab of Star Rail where I mentioned other tropers constantly moving Mythology Gag examples into another trope like Company Cross-References or Expy (there's an obvious confusion of what trope to use, when they were originally written under Mythology Gag). I even brought it up on the Expy Cleanup thread but got no responses. Now, it would seem like plenty of Honkai: Star Rail expy examples might also be axed for being misused, even if the context within them can be verified or salvaged to a better trope? Though if this discussion might be better moved to the Expy Clean-Up thread, I'd probably bring it there later.


I also think that at best, there should've been a trope that covers a "character who is deliberately based off another character by the same creators" (as mentioned by AlleyOop) if it's not covered by Expy. The discussion that I had with other tropers in the Star Rail tab say Company Cross-References may not even be the right trope for it.

Edited by DanteVin With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
eagle108 Since: Aug, 2009
2023-06-06 18:17:00

Long time DMC fan, and yeah, I'd say that the Cobra-aspect for Dante is probably better under the main Trivia subpage, since it is Word of God from Kamiya on using Cobra as a foundation.

Shadeblade11 (Troper Journeyman)
2023-06-07 01:39:33

That's misusing what Composite Character is for. This implies Dante is from the source materials Kamiya cite, which he is not. DMC is not a direct adaptation of either JJBA or Space Adventure Cobra, he's just inspired by the two characters. That interview is important Word of God trivia, but Dante doesn't fit either Expy or Composite Character.

DanteVin Since: Jul, 2016
2023-06-07 13:07:56

So uh, with what this ATT query is currently heading to, the info about "DMC Dante is inspired by Cobra and Joseph Joestar, as confirmed in an interview with Hideki Kamiya" is still best moved to Trivia, right? But now, it's not a valid Expy nor Composite Character example?

I actually did update an existing Trivia item on the Trivia.Devil May Cry 1 page to cover it at least, including the interview screenshot provided by troper AlleyOop.

But there is still a Composite Character example on Dante's page which also similarly covered that info. What's going to happen to that then? Deleted?

With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
2023-06-07 14:28:29

Nah, I think the Composite Character entry is pretty clear-cut. Turns out I had a brain fart and that was the entry I added, not the Expy one, and usually that trope is more flexible as long as the entry isn't pulling the inspiration completely out of its ass (and I posted a link to proof so I know it wasn't made up).

A Trivia entry could supplement it too, but I think we can leave that particular one for now.

Shadeblade11 (Troper Journeyman)
2023-06-07 16:48:43

No, that should be removed. The link is irrelevant; the issue is Composite Character is misused, and that info is misplaced. There's nothing on Composite Character that says anything about a character's inspirations. That's not the same as "A character in an adaptation of one work has traits from multiple characters from its source material.", to quote from the laconic and playing with pages.

There is no need for this info to be shoehorned into Dante's character page. The trivia page is fine.

eagle108 Since: Aug, 2009
2023-06-07 18:17:06

Yeah, echoing the trivia page.

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