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When I brought the super-trope and sub-trope situations on Jerkass and Jerk with a Heart of Gold up on ATT in 2021, crazysamaritan mentioned
including both the super-trope and sub-trope is redundant.
Also, according to XFllo's comment on a 2019 ATT:
In this case, since Hypocrite is a Super-Trope and covers Never My Fault as a Sub-Trope (along with Double Standard, Secretly Selfish, Hypocritical Humor and Parental Hypocrisy), we don't need to list both.
Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
If these are separate examples I see no issue listing whatever's closest for each.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
What I need to ask is what's actually meant by "separate examples", though. Like, are you just referring to each having a separate writeup, or the examples referring to different things? If they're referring to the same thing, then yes, it's policy to use the subtrope only.
Current Project: The Team
If the subject is different. If it's the same then a subtrope only.
Edited by Amonimus TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
^^ They're separate examples entirely. Example A is listed under Never My Fault, Example B is listed under Secretly Selfish and Example C is listed under Hypocrite.
- The Hypocrite entry is in the OP.
- Never My Fault: In the fourth volume, Raven doesn't take responsibility for her tribe's assault on Shion leaving it vulnerable for the Grimm to destroy it. One volume later, she never acknowledges the danger she's put her tribe in by becoming a Maiden, and dismisses her decision to lure her brother and daughter into an ambush as it being a sign of faith in their skill and strength to survive.
- Secretly Selfish: While Raven initially appears to be a powerful Social Darwinist, Volume 5 reveals she is a self-absorbed coward who always puts herself above her family and the tribe's value. Raven willingly risks the lives of her own brother and Team RWBY to obtain the Relic of Knowledge so she can save her own skin. After realising it'll put her on Salem's hit-list, and Yang's willing to take the heat instead, it reduces her to tears — but she still takes the offer and flees.
So, do you think we should bring it up on the Trope Talk forum, since the forum includes discussion of the definitions of and relationships between tropes?
^^ Yes, Wyld, I was already aware of that. Them being separate examples is sort of a given unless they were being tropeslashed. My question was about whether or not the examples were discussing different things, and it seems as though they aren't.
Current Project: The Team
Then I'm not sure what you're asking because I thought I was answering whether they're discussing different things. I listed the specific examples because I thought it was better to see the actual entries, rather than just someone else (in this case, me) filtering them by summarising them in my own words. I didn't list them because I thought you were asking whether they were tropeslashed — that interpretation never even entered my head.
The short of it is that, if you think that the Secretly Selfish entry is describing the reason why the Never My Fault behaviour exists (and that's perfectly valid), then you could say they're linked, although they're discussing different events. However, the Hypocrite entry isn't related to either of them. It's about something that's never been fully explained; the reason why she abandoned her daughter and then-husband hasn't ever been revealed, we just know that — for some reason — she prioritises a tribe of bandits who raised them over her daughter, and her brother calls her a hypocrite for being offended that he prioritises his niece over a bunch of thieves and murderers.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I was just trying to get an idea of what you were referring to, because them being separate examples should have been obvious and isn't a deciding factor in how the subtrope and supertrope rule works. That's why I asked if the examples were about different things (as in, completely separate events) because that would be a different story entirely. Otherwise, I needed to know if you were just specifying a detail that wasn't relevant to the question (as repeatedly specifying that each trope had a separate example was a big part of your query, to the point where it distracted me from other details).
To me, as someone who doesn't know RWBY, all three examples appear to be describing the same topic. I don't see why the Hypocrite example is different because they all touch on her family dynamic, just with the Hypocrite one focusing on that exclusively. But since the same issue is touched on in each example, no, I don't see a point in having Hypocrite there.
Edited by WarJay77 Current Project: The Team
The more I look at those three entries, the more I think all three of them are problematic. They all suffer from entry creep — a core entry, about a core event, that ends up getting expanded to be turned into a "Raven's a bad mum to Yang" entry. The three core events are a straight conversation about hypocrisy between Raven and her brother (Hypocrite), Raven refusing to accept the blame for wiping out an entire village (Never My Fault), and Raven having an elaborate long-term plan to protect the tribe from the Big Bad because of the Maiden in their ranks until a "The Reason You Suck" Speech exposes her as a Dirty Coward who somehow manages to manipulate others into being put in harm's way to protect her and nobody else (Secretly Selfish).
Now, whether that's still too similar or not for all three to apply is fine, but I am now wondering whether all three of them need to be looked at. If that's the case, ATT definitely isn't the place for that, and we can take it somewhere else to discuss.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Maybe we can try taking it to Trope Talk or on the "Is this an example?" thread.
Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
The "don't list supertrope if subtrope is present" rule doesn't apply to different events/manifestations of the tropes — something only fitting the subtrope, something only fitting the supertrope (note the example shown in Example Indentation in Trope Lists). In this case, the "entry creep" for those is likely contributing to the write-ups looking somewhat similar and could be trimmed, perhaps at ^ thread.
Yeah, we'll clean the wording of the three up and then see what we've got left, and decide which tropes are the most appropriate for them.
@gjjones What about the RWBY projects thread? I know it barely gets used, but if we're just looking to see what we've got as examples first before we decide which tropes they should be under, I don't think any clean-up thread is going to help initially, until we know what entries we've got and want to check which tropes they fall under (at which point, we can put them on the Is This An Example? thread to confirm).
How does that sound?
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
That could work.
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Okay, I've started the post here.
Thanks for the feedback, guys.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Bit of a weird one, this.
This is regarding a Raven Branwen Hypocrite entry on Characters.RWBY Anima.
Back in July 2021, gjjones initially removed it because the Hypocrite sub-trope Never My Fault was on her page. I added it back because the Never My Fault entry was a completely different example, and there was no sub-trope detailing the Hypocrite entry. They then changed it to Straw Hypocrite, so I started a discussion on the discussion page about whether that was an appropriate move (a straw hypocrite usually doesn't believe the argument they're making, which isn't the case here). They added the entry back to Hypocrite themselves.
They've just removed the entry on the grounds that the sub-tropes Never My Fault and Secretly Selfish are on the page. But, as per last time, these sub-trope entries are about different examples to the Hypocrite one.
So, this guideline about not allowing the super-trope if sub-tropes are on the page. It's about the same examples, isn't it? If Example A for Character Y is under a sub-trope and Example B fits better under the super-trope and not any sub-trope, is it okay to have the super-trope on the same page for Example B? And, if Example A fits better under a sub-trope, you shouldn't have it listed under the super-trope as well. That's what I thought the guideline was, at any rate. What's the right thing to do here about this entry? Is there a sub/super trope thread to ask about this?
- Hypocrite: Raven has a problematic view of family responsibilities. She feels Qrow's abandonment of the Branwen tribe is turning his back on family, but he feels she has no business lecturing him when she abandoned Taiyang and Yang. Qrow tells Yang Raven only contacts him when she wants him; once Yang seeks out Raven so she can take her to Qrow and Ruby, Raven complains about family only visiting when they need something.
Edited by Wyldchyld