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MurlocAggroB Since: May, 2015
2023-02-23 16:31:37

I agree with Known Unknown, fundamentally at least. Alternate Self is becoming progressively meaningless on this site, as franchise reboots and multiverse stories are becoming extremely prevalent to pop culture. Tropes are supposed to have meaning; Alternate Self serves a plot function in stories where it's intended. 1966 Batman was not designed to be an Alternate Self, but just an adaptation of a work. Slapping Alternate Self on every adaptation is taking the meaning away. Hell, I've seen countless examples that just say "This long-established character also exists in another universe.", which is pure Zero-Context Example — and you can't add context to that because there is no context.

HOWEVER, that decision should not be unilateral. This is something that needs to be brought up in a Trope Talk thread.

regulation pigeon
WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
2023-02-23 18:16:07

I honestly agree with the deletion. Alternate Self should only be use if a story introduced an Alternate version of a person. So pretty much only DCEU Flash meeting Arrowverse Flash would fit.

DeskJet Since: Feb, 2023
2023-02-23 18:56:10

I think Smallville!Clark and Returns!Clark would also fit the definition, since they actually appear and interact with the cast in COIE, as would 1990!Flash.

bwburke94 (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
2023-02-23 18:57:55

^ That makes sense.

2025: the year it all ends?
DragonRanger (Troper Knight)
2023-02-23 19:22:18

Agreed. Listing off all known alternates of everybody because the works had a crossover once is just meaningless trivia. Leave it for when it means something to the story.

WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
2023-02-23 20:44:05

I like to mentioned i seen Alternate Self on characters who just share the same actor. Which makes zero sense.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
2023-02-23 23:46:59

Chiming in to say if Alternate Self is being misused on the site for adaptations and not for thematic purposes In-Universe, then it is worth doing a wick check to see if the entire trope needs to go to the Trope Repair Shop to clean-up misuse at minimum.

DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-02-24 05:09:30

Whirl RX: I think Alternate Self was used instead of Identical Stranger since the latter only refers to characters that share the same actors within the same universe. So I guess people weren't sure whether Identical Stranger works when an actor has played more than one character in the same multiverse. For example, is Arrowverse Atom and Returns Superman an example of Alternate Self or Identical Stranger?

MurlocAggroB: The difference is that it's not being used for every adaption, only those adaptions confirmed to be canon with other adaptions. At the very least, I still think there should be something that acknowledges the connection if we're not using that trope.

Edgar81539 Since: Mar, 2014
2023-02-24 05:44:28

Chiming in, I think that the use of the trope has gotten increasingly chairsy. We're not meant to be a trivia catalogue, but rather catalogue tropes and how they're used on stories, ergo, characters.

Knowing that Vigilante from the DCEU has two or three alternate counterparts in the Arrowverse tells me nothing about the story that's shown on Peacemaker, because he never interacted with any of them, nor did anyone ever bring up a comparison, whereas something like "Adaptational Personality Change" does tell me that the story is a somewhat silly affair that still has emotional beats and weight.

We already have tropes that showcase how a character is done different from other adaptations, such as Truer to the Text and all the "Adaptational X" pages. Unless the character interacts with his own alternate self, or it's a specific plot point that other characters are interacting with different versions of the same character, then this shouldn't be used, IMO.

Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2023-02-24 07:06:18

We are discussing character sheets, so it makes sense to add it if it affects something about the character. And in 99% of cases, it does not, and amounts to trivia.

If we must catalog that Peacemaker is in the same distant multiverse as Tim Burton's Batman (and I am not sure we should, at least in the trope lists) then one entry on the works' pages should accomplish that without listing every single overlap in the characters.

Edited by Synchronicity
DarthDavros75 Since: Jan, 2023
2023-02-24 07:59:35

Synchronicity: Here's a somewhat related question. Can Alternate Universe and Alternate History tropes be used for the main pages of a piece of media? For example, the Raimi and Webb films have them to acknowledge that they are an alternate universe to the MCU which they cross over. So can the main Batman 66 page have the Alternate Universe trope to acknowledge that its part of the Arrowverse multiverse?

Edited by DarthDavros75
MurlocAggroB Since: May, 2015
2023-02-24 09:23:04

^ That still doesn't amount to anything more than trivia. It shouldn't be listed unless it's being acknowledged as an alternate universe in the work itself. If it's acknowledged as an alternate universe in a different work, then it can be listed on the work where it's acknowledged.

Also, it "not being used for every adaptation" is not true. I cleaned up Characters.Teen Titans 2003 last night, which had an Alternate Self entry on every single character that has also appeared in the DCAMU or another show, all of which just said "this character has an alternate version in this universe". The only one I left was Trigon because him interacting with his TTG version is a large part of the crossover TV movie. That's an extreme case, but pushing back on meaning opens tropes up to decay. If you take a hard stance on an edge case, then there's less chance that someone will replicate it for an entry that's definitely wrong

regulation pigeon
Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2023-02-24 09:31:11

This thread has reached a consensus to remove superfluous/not-plot-or-character-relevant Alternate Self entries from the pages. If we would like to expand the discussion to how to use these + Alternate Universe + Alternate History about the works themselves, let's go to Trope Talk.

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