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StarSword Since: Sep, 2011
2023-02-12 20:52:05

I think this is fundamentally an issue of Creator's Pest versus Ron the Death Eater. Personally I would divide up examples as follows.

  • Ron the Death Eater: Goes on the source work's YMMV page, describes fandom depicting characters canonically depicted as heroic as abhorrent and/or villainous. Exhibit A: Ron to Harry/Hermione shippers.
  • Creator's Pest: Describes a work creator disliking a particular character in the work. Page description specifically states it can be used for fan fiction (added in 2018).

So, Dracoblade is flat wrong IMHO.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010
2023-02-12 23:14:43

But "deliberately writing badly" feels like it should very much fit under Ron the Death Eater. Unless that's a mischaracterization and the entries are more like "the author's notes say they don't like Bob in canon very much, which is why he's Put on the Bus here", I'm inclined to agree with the cuts.

WillyFourEyes (Troper Sage)
2023-02-13 03:34:01

I vote to keep the cuts. The other media folders only contain examples of characters created specifically for the work, so I don't think the Fan Works folder should be any different. Otherwise, the folder would soon balloon into a subpage full of examples of authors admitting to hating specific characters from canon as an excuse to bash them.

I also don't think they should be added back because the trope's opposite page, Creator's Favorite, isn't as loaded up with examples of authors loving certain characters from canon and giving them greater focus as a result.

Edited by WillyFourEyes "If struck hard enough, even the plumpest pigs can fly."
StarSword Since: Sep, 2011
2023-02-13 08:53:57

I disagree. Speaking as a fan fiction writer myself, using canon characters in fanfic really isn't any different mechanically from writing them in a licensed adaptation: it's only different from a legal and financial standpoint (i.e. I don't have a license from the IP holder and I don't get paid to do it). For example, when I wrote Reality Is Fluid, I included characters from both canon Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek Online in addition to my OCs, but by definition it's my interpretation of those characters: I have to extrapolate how they would act in my scenario from how I perceive them acting in canon.

And there are characters in canon whom I despise and therefore write negatively, the Kobali for example, and I think would therefore qualify as examples of Creator's Pest (the rule against Auto-Erotic Troping notwithstanding).

Edited by StarSword Trust me, I'm an engineer!
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2023-02-13 10:23:53

I agree Creator's Pest shouldn't be fanworks vilifying/bashing characters they don't like, but I also agree that such is no different then when licensed works, who's characters are inherited rather than made by whom they're Pest to, do the same which is seemingly allowed.

My proposed fix is that CP is not characters they dislike such they enjoy bashing them, but dislike working with them such rather than bash they would just not include them given the choice, or at least try to marginalize. But does that make it too similar to Creator Backlash? Thoughts?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught
StarSword Since: Sep, 2011
2023-02-13 14:25:08

Creator Backlash is supposed to be when a creator dislikes a past work they made rather than a particular character in it (e.g. Disney refusing to make Song of the South available again), so that's not an issue.

Furthermore Creator's Pest doesn't actually require a creator to actively try to paint a character negatively, it just often results in that: Yomu Mishima created Marie Fou Lafan out of dislike of "little sister" characters in visual and light novels, but she actually takes a Heel–Face Turn and becomes the deuteragonist of the series starting in volume 4.

Edited by StarSword Trust me, I'm an engineer!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010
2023-02-13 14:47:10

Again, that's why I think these examples are actually Ron the Death Eater - Creator's Pest just means the author says they dislike them; it's RTDE when they actually deliberately go out of their way to portray them in a negative light.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2023-02-13 15:18:35

So... Ron the Death Eater actually doesn't apply since the semi-recent TRS made it about fandom trends and not specific fanfic examples (yes, there's a lot of misuse to clean up; no, that doesn't change anything).

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2023-02-13 15:30:07

^^They're not RTDE as that is general fandom trends of such, not specific works/creators doing such (possibly to characters who aren't off enough vilified to fit RTDE) which is Adaptational Personality Change. The CP examples being debated describe their motivations for the change.

There is a possible mechanical difference between fan and official works in this case. Official works have Creativity Leashes that limit them from just removing/not including/fixing characters they don't like, fanworks don't usually (collaborations being the exception) have those restrictions. Thus I see official works bashing characters they can't just remove as valid but fanworks doing it as misuse as nothing's stopping them from removing/fixing them save they DO like the character to bash/like their vilified version of the character.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2023-02-14 21:57:15

Bump. I'll remove the fanwork bashing examples as it's not their version of that character they dislike (keeping Codex Equus Chrysalis as despite disliking them they keep her unabashed for the sake of other fans). Any objections?

WillyFourEyes (Troper Sage)
2023-02-15 03:38:19

^x3 ^x2 I know this is slightly off-topic, but what does everyone think should be done about story-specific cases of character bashing that don't follow general fandom trends that RTDE is supposed to be about? My first instinct would have been to stick those under Character Derailment, but that should only apply to when characters start consistently acting out of character within the story rather than what another author does with them (and there's plenty of misuse on CharacterDerailment.Fan Works that needs to be trimmed down).

"If struck hard enough, even the plumpest pigs can fly."
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010
2023-02-15 04:33:46

^TBH, while it's probably a subject for another thread entirely, this is exactly why I was incredibly dismayed to hear about that TRS result. They picked the objectively worse of the two potential definitions that had been previously mashed into Ron the Death Eater - "general fandom trends" are far less tropable than the examples about individual works that are now left in limbo.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2023-02-15 05:31:54

Most of them just go under Adaptational Villainy.

But yeah this is off topic.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
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