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Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2022-04-12 08:04:20

Dartheal doesn't edit that often, this being their first edit in almost 4 years. And the edit reason might as well be blank, because it doesn't explain anything about what Reddit posts and where they are.

And no, it wasn't discussed anywhere before deletion.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
2022-04-12 08:26:14

There could be something there, since two r/l Canadian serial killers, the Ken and Barbie Killers Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, took inspiration from the book. Though that was more the sadistic killer angle than the incel one.

laserviking42 Since: Oct, 2015
2022-04-12 09:15:20

^ The issue is it was deleted with an unclear edit reason. While it seems valid, I do my best to not hang around incel/mra type forums for my sanity, so I don't know if it is true.

If American Psycho has a strong incel following, then yes the example absolutely belongs.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
CrimsonZephyr Since: Aug, 2010
2022-04-12 13:03:39

Patrick Bateman being a posterboy or object of fascination for incels and MGTOWs feels like it is essentially a true statement. For my own mental health, I'm not going to survey actual incel communities to gather data, but there's enough of a discourse in amateur film analysis that American Psycho, Fight Club, Joker and the like are stereotypical "incel cinema" for it to be worthy of re-adding, in my opinion.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr "For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2022-04-12 13:14:03

I mean, I'm not even sure how some reddit posts could discredit this- people on Reddit disagreeing doesn't mean the reaction doesn't exist.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
StarSword Since: Sep, 2011
2022-04-12 13:26:38

Casual google search says he very much is. Furthermore I wouldn't consider Reddit an authoritative source on much of anything remotely political without citations.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
2022-04-12 13:28:29

Came here to basically say ^. Reddit isn't a very good source on its own without citations as said above.

Works That Require Cleanup Of Complaining | Troper Wall
HingabeSieben Since: Jul, 2021
2022-04-12 16:57:00

Whether or not this example is valid, I really do not think "incel" should be accepted as a legitimate term on trope pages.

It's childish, chauvinistic, and self-congratulatory. It reeks of TV Tropes itself endorsing A Man Is Not A Virgin.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2022-04-12 17:09:24

^ Um, Incel is the term that community uses for themselves. It's literally just a portmanteau of Involuntary Celibate. We're just using the word because it's the word for the community we're discussing.

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
laserviking42 Since: Oct, 2015
2022-04-12 17:15:40

^^ We are using the name they themselves use. I don't see what's "self congratulatory" about this particular instance. We're not dunking on them, in fact we really don't discuss them much outside of such examples (which is as it should be).

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
HingabeSieben Since: Jul, 2021
2022-04-12 18:09:38

Are we talking about a community of self-acknowledged losers who admit they can't get a girlfriend but still want one? Who don't particularly have any problems with women as a gender, who are just unhappy at the fact that they don't have a romantic relationship with one?

Or are we talking a community of people who do dislike women for whatever reason, particularly modern women? I don't think those people are calling themselves "incels." That wouldn't be a very effective look. "Modern women are trash, but I'm also a complete loser"?

It seems to me that if one of these groups were to be revering American Psycho, it would likely be the latter, not the former.

Edited by HingabeSieben
laserviking42 Since: Oct, 2015
2022-04-12 18:17:15

You're derailing this conversation from the original post, one thing I firmly believe we should not do, is to delve into the various schisms and sub groups of the aforementioned community.

The question is whether the deletion is valid or not, and to a lesser degree, if the community calling themselves incels look up to Patrick Bateman as some sort of hero.

And FYI, your above statement definitely sounds "childish, chauvinistic, and self-congratulatory".

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
HingabeSieben Since: Jul, 2021
2022-04-12 18:20:28

Which above statement is that, exactly?

I think what I wrote is completely relevant to whether "the community calling themselves incels look up to Patrick Bateman as some sort of hero."

> one thing I firmly believe we should not do, is to delve into the various schisms and sub groups of the aforementioned community.

Then the reference should be scrapped entirely, shouldn't it? If content is off limits from being investigated because it's a topic we don't want to touch, it seems to me like we should do precisely that: Not touch it.

And although I frankly think this should be obvious, this is by no means an endorsement of any of these groups.

Edited by HingabeSieben
Reymma Since: Feb, 2015
2022-04-12 18:25:32

It is one of those painful ironies that "incel" was coined by a woman, intended to cover exactly that, anyone who was romantically and sexually unfulfilled because of their situation or lack of social graces. She just left her community to simmer on its own too long.

As to the example, I can believe it, but "revere" can be weird in incel circles; they admire "chads", but also hate them. I'm not even sure if it's misaimed, they could acknowledge all that and still see him as living their dream life.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
laserviking42 Since: Oct, 2015
2022-04-12 21:24:42

^^ I'm still not sure why you continue to complicate the issue by delving who is and is not an incel. The question is simple, do people who call themselves incels idolize Patrick Bateman as some sort of hero?

That's all that needs to be discussed. We do not need to determine who is the true incel according to your criteria. We (and I cannot stress this enough) do not need to parse who is and isn't part of this group, and certainly don't need to tell the difference between "losers who can't get a girlfriend" and the people you (and only you) have determined aren't true incels.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
StarSword Since: Sep, 2011
2022-04-13 05:26:47

Yeah, let's keep our collective eyes on the ball here.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
2022-04-13 07:03:51

^^^Revere as in "they agree with and praise his philosophy." It's pretty clear he's written as a misogynistic, Villain Protagonist that you are supposed to at best pity if not outright dislike, but there are some who, while not agreeing with the whole murdering people stuff, don't really see the character as a Villain to root against because they agree with his worldview and his superficial success with women. That's why it'd be misaimed: the author's intended audience are not the only ones who enjoyed the work, and in this case, it's for the exact thing the author was attempting to criticize through satire.

As for the post, I feel like unless there's more evidence brought forth that the incel community has come around to rejecting Patrick Bateman, it should be restored.

gc10 Since: Feb, 2019
2022-04-13 08:05:43

Ok, we pretty much settled the entry is valid, as there is a Misaimed Fandom of mysoginist/hateful people who venerate Patrick Bateman when he's supposed to be loathed.

Hingabe Sieben is not making a wrong point though. The term "incel" was intended to be a neutral definition at first, and even the girl who invented it is unhappy that it has now a negative connotation. And frankly, I do agree that the hostility towards hateful and misogynistic incels is, as a side effect, hurting innocent "incels" as well.

Since this is not the place to argue about this in detail, what I'll do is to put back the entry as it was with only minimal rewording.

Edited by gc10
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