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MyFinalEdits (Spin-off Series)
2021-11-24 16:39:22

The text is so large that it spends more time trying to justify why it's supposedly an example. I wouldn't miss it if it was removed.

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2021-11-24 16:46:48

That example is a mess. Torch it.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-11-24 17:05:43

Sora had been rumored to be a Smash character for ages. Cut it.

MegaMarioMan (Ten years in the joint)
2021-11-24 17:19:18

Given that he was a top-requested character in minimum the USA, Europe and Japan...

Amonimus (Sergeant)
2021-11-24 17:25:18

The page seems to be a magnet for "X was actually expected as (Wall of Text)..., but what wasn't though..." entries, looking at previous fighters.

Edited by Amonimus TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-11-24 18:35:56

I wonder if a rename like "Left-Field Character" would be called for?

Karxrida Since: May, 2012
2021-11-25 00:20:55

I'm pretty sure it's actually valid? While people really wanted Sora, many wrote him off as nigh-impossible due to being tied up with Disney.

That example is a huge text wall and needs a trimming, though.

Edited by Karxrida
GoldenDarkness Since: Jan, 2001
2021-11-25 07:14:02

Yeah. There's was even a comment by journalist Imran Khan back in February 2020 that he heard that Sora in Smash was vetoed by Disney. So while players did want Sora in, they also knew that the legal hurdles was higher compared to a character not owned by Disney.

Ngamer01 Since: Oct, 2010
2021-11-25 07:23:03

^^ & ^ - Agreed. I find it's a valid example as well, but it's in need of a trim (if it hasn't been trimmed down already). Unexpected doesn't have to always mean the fans don't speak of them. It can be unexpected from a licensing standpoint as well.

Characters that are wrapped up in copyright/licensing red tape shouldn't be disqualified from Unexpected Character even if they're highly wanted and talked about by fans.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
2021-11-25 08:17:07

Agreed. There's a difference between wanting something to happen and expecting it to happen.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-11-25 12:01:25

All the cleanups I've seen about Unexpected Character said it doesn't apply to characters widely talked about/wanted but considered impossible.

But that limitation isn't mentioned in the page or elsewhere. So thanks for bringing this discrepancy to attention.

GoldenDarkness Since: Jan, 2001
2021-11-25 12:57:08

It's a limitation that really shouldn't be applied. I mean, most of the characters added to Smash probably had their backers who wanted them in. It's just hard to determine what is the widespread consensus on them. Look at Cloud. Word of God states he's the most requested character out of anyone who suggested a Final Fantasy character.

BaffleBlend Since: Dec, 2012
2021-11-26 12:35:20

More along the lines of how I'd put it:

  • Unexpected Character: A peculiar example given how many people wanted him in — he was the #1 worldwide result in the for Wii U/3DS character ballot, but most fans felt that, due to belonging to Disney, a company long-notorious for being highly protective of its intellectual properties, his chances being Screwed by the Lawyers were all but guaranteed. Even Sakurai himself thought including him was practically impossible, having added Bayonetta as the #1 doable ballot request before.

Edited by BaffleBlend "It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
MyFinalEdits (Spin-off Series)
2021-11-26 13:03:37

I support that version.

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WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-11-26 13:04:48

Where exactly is that example going? Because it's YMMV, and the example doesn't explain who the character is which seems like it's written for the characters page, where it can't be placed.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
2021-11-26 13:05:24

Much better.

Edit: ah dammit, ninja'd. Warjay has a point, the example should be tweaked so it directly references Sora.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
megagutsman (Seven Years' War)
2021-11-26 13:17:22

So, something like this?:

  • Unexpected Character: Sora became a peculiar example given how many people wanted him in — he was the #1 worldwide result in the for Wii U/3DS character ballot, but most fans felt that, due to belonging to Disney, a company long-notorious for being highly protective of its intellectual properties, his chances being Screwed by the Lawyers were all but guaranteed. Even Sakurai himself thought including him was practically impossible, having added Bayonetta as the #1 doable ballot request before.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
megagutsman (Seven Years' War)
2021-11-26 13:34:47

So, can it be added without problems?.

GoldenDarkness Since: Jan, 2001
2021-11-29 11:03:15

Any update on the consensus? Are impossible but wanted inclusions to the cast considered unexpected?

I mean, if Sora can't be here, then Spider-Man can't be for unexpected MCU characters.

Excessive-Menace (Fifth Year at Tropey's)
2021-11-29 13:05:33

Sora was highly wanted, but not expected to come into Smash, so I think the revised entry can be added.

SING TO ME, LEND ME THE SONG OF BLASPHEMY
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-11-29 14:22:13

Ok then.

Does anyone know where the notion that popular/widely discussed characters don't count came up? I believe several removals from the Smash page were do to this.

For future reference, where do we draw the line for "thought impossible"? (Ridley had as many arguments for and against and they were removed from the page.) Requiring above Broken Base levels of fan agreement it's impossible? Impossible due to legal or other external reason as opposed to self-imposed (like saying they wanted x character separate from y work) the creators could theoretically overturn on a whim?

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-11-29 18:45:32

Update: I found the ATT that led the to widely considered but thought impossible examples deemed misuse. Any thoughts regarding that and if we should continue to follow those restrictions?

Maybe "Seemingly Impossible Character" like Sora should be a separate audience reaction from Unexpected?

Ngamer01 Since: Oct, 2010
2021-11-30 07:32:23

I guess a Trope Talk thread would be needed to see how the tropers feel about a change and if there's merit for some kind of change, then Unexpected Character could be added to Tropes Needing TRS to be investigated for an expansion, split, or whatever else appropriate action there could be.

Fighteer MOD (Time Abyss)
2021-11-30 08:13:11

"We didn't expect this character to be in this work" is so not a trope that I'm amazed we have it. It is classified correctly as an audience reaction but even then it seems too vague to be useful.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2021-11-30 10:28:24

I don't think it's that vague. At least not to the degree that it's impossible to notice a valid entry (this is a weird case due to the "want" vs "expect" difference). I usually only see it added for characters where the narrative or meta circumstances made it highly unlikely that they'd return, meaning their mere appearance constitutes a Shocking Moment. I don't think it's bad to keep.

But, you know... that's Trope Talk stuff.

Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
BaffleBlend Since: Dec, 2012
2021-11-30 10:42:02

^⁵ The difference with Ridley is that Sakurai could put him in at any time, he just didn't particularly want to. He had also been teased numerous times throughout the series's development. Sora, meanwhile, was someone even Sakurai himself was shocked by. If that doesn't constitute "unexpected", I don't know what does.

^² IMO, it's no more vague than most other Audience Reaction/YMMVs. We have similar "no real consensus" issues with the entire category, IIRC. But that's just me.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
MyFinalEdits (Spin-off Series)
2021-11-30 11:55:03

I think discussion should continue on a Trope Talk thread. I'm not sure if we'll be able to settle the conundrum on ATT without extending the query to over 30 replies (mine will be #28).

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Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-12-01 12:03:53

Agreed this has become a bigger discussion than ATT and should be continued elsewhere.

@BaffleBlend: "Presumed Impossible" is different than "Unexpected" despite being similar. Maybe it should be a separate trope.

MacronNotes (Captain)
2021-12-01 12:21:44

Since this is really long and not really suited for ATT, I’ll lock this query so people can move the discussion over to Trope Talk.

Macron's notes
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