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AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 07:00:07

Okay, this one's a long story, but I assure you that there is a lot of evidence over the course of months to cover, so I'm dividing it into parts for clarity.

Part 1A: How It All Began—Edit War on Main Page

On 26/27 May 2021, a user called SweetHABIT (who will be addressed as Sweet in the following post) made a series of edits on multiple Dream SMP pages, primarily the main page and c!Dream's character page. The main issue with their edits is that they were heavily biased towards c!Dream and often tried to downplay his actions and slander those who were against him, or as most of us Tropers know them as the Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater YMMV tropes, with the most prominent example being this addition:

From a basic standpoint, Dream and the Greater Dream SMP were in the right during the first L’manberg War. L’manberg was founded on the basis of making a drug empire with materials that Wilbur and Tommy stole or manipulated other SMP members into giving them. In order to avoid facing punishment for their crimes, Wilbur declared the Drug Van and the area around it as a new country, L’manberg. They then proceeded to build walls and ban any ‘Non-British/European’ members of the SMP entering. In a later conversation with Skeppy after the conclusion of the war, Dream compares L’manberg to people entering his house and claiming the dining room table for themselves, banning everyone else from using it. The only reason L’manburg was viewed as the ‘good guys’ is because of the Cult of Personality Wilbur and Tommy formed, and turning Dream into a tyrannical villain.

Not only is this take biased, due to their claim that c!Dream was "in the right", but it's inaccurate to canon as well, as the L'Manburgians never formed a "cult of personality"—all members of the nation/faction voluntarily joined and none of their "propaganda" was taken seriously by anyone at all, leaving it with little, if any, narrative weight.

Their edit reason was:

"Updated and corrected information on certain tropes and active factions on the SMP."

This resulted in an hours-long edit war between them, fatebit, me, and another user Lozfan15 (who has their own issues, but hasn't returned to edit the DSMP pages since). This was mainly seen as a one-off incident at the time, and ever since two of our fellow editors (who did not participate in the edit war) handled the situation and added a disclaimer against YMMV-style additions on the main page, we considered the matter closed.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-11-05 07:00:22

Is this the kind of person that you tend to label "apologists"?

EDIT: Also, it'd be much better to put everything in folders in your OP.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 07:12:40

Part 1B: Biased Takes in the Character Page

However, their edits in c!Dream's character page (added during the same time frame) were also heavily skewed towards c!Dream and I suspect some may even violate the TV Tropes rules and regulations.

    open/close all folders 

    Example 1 (under Xanatos Gambit) 
Sweet's edit: Some theories believe that Dream also counted on this plan during the Disc War Finale. In a conversation with Punz, Dream revealed that his ultimate goal was to reunite the server into ‘one big happy family.’ It’s possible that Dream planned to have the entire server hate him, so that they would unite against one common enemy (Dream) and fulfill his ultimate goal, albeit while sacrificing Dream’s own place within the family. If that is the case, Dream would be sorely disappointed; the SMP has not become any more peaceful since he was locked in Pandora’s Vault, with the Egg brainwashing several members of the Badlands, missing nukes, and Quackity’s plans to manipulate the SMP through his casino city, Las Nevadas.

The main issues: This is a fan theory, and one with little to no basis in canon to boot. All of the "fanon" listed on the character pages are either highly pervasive throughout the fandom, or are supported by some degree of basis in canon. I deleted this section of the edit with the Edit Reason stating, "please place your theories in the WMG page, not here. I'm sorry for my previous comments towards you, but you genuinely sounded quite biased back there on the main page."

    Example 2 (under Control Freak) 
Sweet's edit: Dream considers (somewhat rightfully) the entire server to be his property, in a sense. This begins with him declaring war against L’manberg after they ban non-Europeans from within their border, and revolt against Dream’s rules. Over time this aspect of Dream gets considerably worse, eventually ending in his penultimate plan to take control of every attachment on the SMP so that everyone will be forced to listen to him, and he can return the server to how it was before L’manberg existed.

The main issues: The main reason c!Dream declared war against L'Manburg wasn't because they banned non-Europeans (which a rule that was never enforced and was played very jokingly, in an "exclusive friend group" sort of way and not seriously), but rather because they declared independence. c!Dream had previously enforced double standards towards several members of L'Manburg in a Screw the Rules, I Make Them! sort of way, and may have engaged in Police Brutality against dissidents, which was what motivated the formation of L'Manburg—as "a special place where men could go emancipate the brutality and the tyranny of their rulers", as their national anthem says. L'Manburg was created to be a peaceful faction that preferred diplomacy over war, and the moment c!Wilbur delivered the declaration to c!Dream, he responded with a message declaring war against them for the very 'crime' of declaring independence. c!Dream then proceeded to burn one of the nation/faction members' houses down and declared for the L'Manburgians to Join or Die.

    Example 3 (under Animal Lover) 
Sweet's edit: Ultimately, this is turned against him in Pandora’s Vault while Tommy is imprisoned with Dream. Through a mechanic glitch, Tommy’s cat teleports into the cell, and Dream gets very attached to the cat, actively blocking it with his own body to prevent Tommy from hurting it or leading it into the lava. After Tommy forces Dream to admit he loves the cat, Tommy kills the cat in front of Dream leading to a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown that ends in Dream ultimately killing him.

The main issues: There is no direct correlation to c!Tommy killing the cat and c!Dream murdering c!Tommy. Before c!Dream killed c!Tommy, c!Tommy doubted c!Dream's claim that he knew how to bring people back from the dead. c!Dream responded with a very deliberate Pre-Mortem One-Liner:

"Why don't you go see him then!" (referring to a character who had been Killed Off for Real back in real-time November 2020.
After c!Dream brought c!Tommy back from the dead about two days later, c!Dream explained his reason for murdering him—"You didn't believe me! I was proving a point!" The cat was pretty much never mentioned again in canon. Many people in the fandom who are biased towards c!Dream use this as a talking point to victim-blame c!Tommy for being brutally murdered by his abuser. Sweet's edit uses words like "leading to" which implies a cause-and-effect relationship between the two events, i.e. victim blaming.

    Example 4 (I forgot which trope this was under) 
Sweet's edit: Dream has also been shown to be progressively more mentally unstable, with a misunderstanding of normal human interaction. It is incredibly possible that he was being genuine during several of these interactions, making it even more difficult for the audience and the other characters to determine if he is being manipulative or not. Due to a long history of negative interactions, most of the SMP believe that all of Dream’s friendlier actions are just attempts at manipulation.

The main issue: c!Dream is canonically a Manipulative Bastard and this has been confirmed by multiple characters, and there is little to no canonical evidence towards their claim/theory/analysis. I deleted that paragraph because "that probably belongs in alternate character interpretation", and proposed "open[ing] up a new page for that and discuss[ing] it from there".

    Example 5: The deletion of the Its All About Me entry (about 2 months ago) 
At the time, the entry read as this:
"* It's All About Me: Dream is profoundly self-centered. He's a massive Control Freak who thinks that not only he should be allowed control of the server, and is constantly ruining lives and manipulating people for this purpose. By the end of Season 2, it becomes entirely clear that Dream will settle for nothing less than total control of everyone on the server and cannot see anyone else as anything but his playthings."

The main issue with the deletion of this was that the usage of the trope was accurate, as c!Dream canonically has a god complex, as listed under the A God Am I entry on the same page. There was not an Edit Reason given for this deletion of a canonical trope.

    Example 6: The deletion of the Jerkass 
This time, they actually listed an Edit Reason.
"Misuse of the trope. Jerkass applies to annoying/irritating characters who are on the Hero/Protagonist/ 'Good Guy's Team, not the antagonist/villain character."
If I recall correctly, this isn't the trope definition of Jerkass, so this so-called "correction" of trope misuse is in fact misusing the trope itself.

These are only six of the examples for their biased/inaccurate edits. They have also added multiple other edits that remain on the main and character pages to this day, though at times we attempt to reach a compromise. Two months ago was the last we had seen of Sweet... until just a couple of days ago.

Edited by AquaEclipse they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 07:17:21

@Michael Katsuro

Yes, this is an apologist. They also recently made an edit referencing apologist discourse that I was just about to get into.

Edited by AquaEclipse they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 07:50:44

Part 2: Abuser Apologism

Background: One of the main bones I have to pick with this fandom is the abuser apologism (aka Draco in Leather Pants), mainly concerning c!Dream because of content creator bias (listed in the Unpopular Popular Character section of the YMMV page). After much deliberation, I added a section targeted at the Draco in Leather Pants trope because of this, and over time, the trope's entry evolved into this:

"Due to the large fanbase his content creator counterpart has, Dream is regarded by some parts of the fandom to be this. So-called c!Dream apologists claim that he is morally grey, Forced into Evil (or Slowly Slipping Into Evil at best), and had good, well-intentioned reason for doing everything he did, wheras some just want Dream go through some kind of redemption arc. Many fans who are unsympathetic towards Dream point out his crimes included and were not limited to child abuse, murder, and plotting the massacre of four L'Manburgians for the "crime" of trying to stand up to his violent Control Freak tendencies through declaring independence. Oftentimes, these 'reasons' and 'justifications' by his apologists classify as Disproportionate Retribution at best, and Victim-Blaming, dehumanization, and spread of blatant misinformation at worst, making this vocal stance highly controversial in parts of the fandom. Unsurprisingly, many of Dream's apologists do not look upon Tommy or Wilbur fondly, believing them to be the root of Dream's fall into morally dark territory (though there is plenty of canonical evidence to prove otherwise), and look upon Technoblade more fondly. Obviously, Dream isn't the only character to have apologists, but the sheer aggression and controversy of Dream's apologists have made them quite a crowd to be aware of while traversing the fandom."

However, yesterday, Sweet got to the post and edited it, with the Edit Reason: "Edited Draco in Leather Pants due to high-bias language and to try and provide a more neutral coverage of the trope." The trope's entry currently reads as such:

"Due to the large fanbase of the content creators and the multi-perspective nature of the SMP, several of the SMP characters are frequently regarded in this way, highly based on which perspective the viewer watches. Character Wilbur and Dream are the most prolific example, as certain portions of the fandom can downplay a lot of their villainous actions in favor of more unrealistic sympathetic portrayals that often contradict one another. One example of this is the infamous Vassal Speech given by Wilbur that opposing portions of the fandom interpreted as Dream manipulating Wilbur vs. Wilbur manipulating Dream. Character Dream in particular is a highly-debated matter amongst the fandom, due to a lack of his perspective and Unreliable Narrator from other perspectives creating several very different interpretations."

The main problem with this edit is that, well, as usual of Sweet at this point, it's biased towards c!Dream and against c!Wilbur, and I'd like to break down their points by talking about their characters as portrayed by canon:

  • c!Wilbur is a pacifist at heart and founded L'Manburg with noble ideals of freedom from tyranny and values of diplomacy over war. However, in the war c!Dream declared on his country, L'Manburg suffered terrible losses, including c!Dream plotting a massacre to kill every single L'Manburgian with a 100% fatality rate, and every loyal L'Manburgian lost a canon life, which is canonically traumatic. (c!Eret, fighting for L'Manburg at first, was manipulated into betraying the country and was the only "L'Manburgian" spared as a result.) This war broke c!Wilbur and was his Cynicism Catalyst that caused a mental spiral that ended in him ultimately committing Suicide by Cop after blowing up his own country. Even after his death and revival, he still cared greatly for L'Manburg and thought that he didn't matter (he canonically said that).
  • c!Dream, from the start, had wanted his server to be a place where he had the supreme authority over all, and wanted to make the server into what it used to be before L'Manburg—no factions, just him ruling over everyone. In doing so, he deliberately isolated c!Tommy (who was the only person on the server in Season 2 to actively go against his rule), 16 at the time, and abused (both physically and psychologically) him until he had Stockholm Syndrome and almost committed suicide. A while after that, he helped destroy L'Manburg with the explosives that have the combined equivalent destructive power of a nuclear bomb (i.e. the Doomsday War), and tried to collect many server members' valuables (pets or items) as blackmail to control them, while commissioning the construction of a Hellhole Prison to lock away dissidents (with enough cells to fit most of the server's members in)—and planned to kill c!Tubbo (another teen member of the server and c!Tommy's best friend) because he had outlived his usefulness in front of c!Tommy, then locking c!Tommy away in the aforementioned Hellhole Prison that just so happened to be filled with many of his Trauma Buttons. Those are only three of the most notable crimes c!Dream has committed in canon.
  • The Vassal Speech occurred during c!Wilbur's mental spiral, when c!Wilbur had decided to destroy L'Manburg (Manburg at the time because it was renamed by his political opponent after he lost the election and got exiled). Around that time, c!Dream supplied most of the explosives c!Wilbur would use to blow up L'Manburg, meaning he willingly encouraged the spiral of a mentally ill and suicidal man.

Sweet's claim that they made the Draco in Leather Pants entry "neutral" is inaccurate.

  1. c!Wilbur was a victim to c!Dream, who caused the war that would become his Cynicism Catalyst and his mental illness was exacerbated by c!Dream's influence.
  2. c!Wilbur isn't an abuser, which is one of many things c!Dream apologists accuse him of. In fact, in the more extreme c!Dream apologist theories, their interpretation of c!Dream basically has c!Wilbur's canonical personality and vice versa, making this highly inaccurate to canon.
  3. The current version isn't "neutral" at all, as c!Wilbur vs c!Dream apologism isn't a dichotomy. c!Wilbur is meant to be a character to be sympathized with, while c!Dream was explicitly made to not be sympathized with (case in point: child abuse).
  4. My original version was "neutral" in the sense that it presented both what c!Dream apologists think and what those that disagree with c!Dream apologists think.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 08:09:53

Ever since the Edit War back in May, I have dreaded every time I reloaded my list of Followed Pages because I was afraid that Sweet would come back and make another heavily biased take that us other editors would have to do damage control for. Although we have managed to make compromises on several minor issues, these major ones are not ones we have been able to resolve. Yesterday, I sent a DM to Sweet and asked them if we could discuss the Draco in Leather Pants edit on a discussion page, mainly because I didn't want to get suspended for edit warring again. They still haven't responded yet.

And as the nail in the coffin, earlier today, I received a message from some friends on Discord that Sweet made a statement on their edit of the Draco in Leather Pants trope on Twitter as mentioned above.

"Don't know how I became the TV Tropes repairman for the c!Dream fans but by God could people at least TRY to not show their bias on there what in the ever loving hell.
I leave and say "never again" only to find some ragamuffin has posted the most biased shit while I wasnt looking"

First of all, the Draco in Leather Pants entry was first added in August, which was long before they "left" (their last edit before the DILP edit was in early September). Secondly, they admitted to editing with an agenda in the tweet. And last of all, they insulted their fellow editors by calling us "ragamuffins"—even though I was the one to add the Draco in Leather Pants entry, I had the help of other editors throughout tweaking the entry to what it was before Sweet got to it.

An additional note is that the "c!Dream fans" are most likely referring to c!Dream apologists, as they call those that oppose them "c!Dream antis" (even though many of us enjoy his character without downplaying his atrocities), and have made extremely wild accusations towards us "antis".

I've also had the idea of making a second Alternative Character Interpretation page dedicated to c!Dream apologists' skewed perspective of the plotline, but I've only had this idea for a few hours.

During my two weeks of suspension (mainly for edit-warring), I reread the list of offenses that would cause a suspension, one of those being "editing with an agenda". Looking back, most of Sweet's major edits on the DSMP pages involve trying to downplay c!Dream's actions that were canonically heinous enough to cross the Moral Event Horizon, and sometimes slandering other characters. Repeatedly, Sweet claims to be "removing" bias against characters in their major edits in the fandom's page, but has only succeeded in adding their own. Therefore, my proposition is to issue a suspension to Sweet for editing with an agenda. If this happens and they receive an appeal, but eventually return to the Dream SMP pages to add more heavily biased content, I will continue to make updates on this Ask the Tropers page.

EDIT: Removed out-of-TV-Tropes issues.

Edited by AquaEclipse they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-11-05 08:13:41

There's also one time where a c!Dream apologist anon admitted to having been an abuser in real life, which makes it clear how horrifying their side of the fandom is—it's a "safe" enough space for someone to literally confess to being an abuser and no one among them bats an eye. That was why I noted that people need to be aware of these people while traversing the fandom, while adding the Cautious Editing Judgement link to it so that no one has to see the true extent of how toxic these fans are.
I'm sorry to be blunt, but this comment really comes off as importing drama. You need to stick to things that happen here on the wiki.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 08:18:00

Also, sorry for making this a thread, but this is genuinely so long that I thought splitting it up into smaller chunks would be better.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 08:19:11

Michael Katsuro Ah, sorry for accidentally importing drama, will be removing it now.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
Spidey Since: Sep, 2020
2021-11-05 08:49:55

I don't know, Aqua, your quote retweets to the tweet you're referring to are pretty angry...

"Unite GUN/BAZOOKA/LAUNCHER/TANK!"
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 09:20:34

Admittedly they are, but they confessed to it. Perhaps we may reserve this discussion for another time when I'm a little… less angry and venty.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 09:35:59

Also, if that's the case, I'd like to ask for permission to make the current DILP entry only accessible to editors (the %% treatment, if you would) to hold off the dispute for now. Mainly because I genuinely wanted to talk this out with Sweet and don't want another edit war on main.

Edited by AquaEclipse they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2021-11-05 09:42:21

Okay I cannot read all of this right now, but I did see the DILP example and I think you're both off the mark a bit. The original example came across as bashing other fans (mostly that bit at the end), while the new example is too low on context as to why these characters are morally dubious in canon and how they are whitewashed in fanon.

And yes the Twitter stuff is drama importation and exportation, please don't go there because it is making things more complicated and may bring more angry fans to mess with these pages.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 09:43:42

Okay, so is it OK to restore the original version but without the "watch out for these people" part?

I'll definitely avoid talking about Twitter issues in the future, it's just that it started with them confessing to doing something that is against the rules on main, and even without that confirmation, we still had evidence to prove they'd been doing that for a good long while.

Edited by AquaEclipse they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2021-11-05 09:45:09

I think you should take it to the discission page or at least a third party who knows the source material well enough to comment.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 09:46:37

I tried taking it to a discussion page but Sweet never responded.

Edited by AquaEclipse they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 09:49:27

Currently putting the thing under %% until a consensus in the future is reached.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
2021-11-05 10:57:52

I have no stake in this, but for future reference, Aqua, please put all your information into your main post: the mods have a tendency to overlook ATT threads with a large amount of replies.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-11-05 10:59:43

Yeah, I'm glad you listened to my advice to put it in folders, but putting said folders in the main post would be a plus.

AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-05 11:05:36

I'll do that in any future Ask the Tropers posts that I make, thanks.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-11-05 11:46:16

Alright, so, after skimming most of these posts, this appears to be the breakdown:

Sweet is a fan of c!Dream and believes that they were in the right during a plotline where some other characters took over a van and declared they were an independent nation, which did include the ban of all European characters, but was otherwise peaceful. Dream in this case wanted to take them down and showed some tyrannical tendencies. Dream has also done some other bad things, and is generally portrayed as an asshole.

However, Sweet's edits repeatedly whitewash Dream and portray other characters in the wrong, often taking things out of context and downplaying the bad things Dream did while exaggerating the bad things the other characters did. This includes things like editing DILP to focus more on other characters than on Dream (and making it a generalized mess in the process, I'll note).

Does that seem accurate?

I will say that I'd like another DreamSMP fan to pitch in on the validity or invalidity of the examples, mostly just so that I- a non-fan- can get a more accurate picture beyond one person's explanation. When it comes to things like this, people can disagree wildly on what actually happened, and I don't want our discussion to end up being accidentally inaccurate about things. Y'know?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-06 02:57:01

@WarJay77

Mostly accurate. The main exception is that those characters built a van (since this is in Minecraft) and didn't steal one, and despite the ban on non-European* characters in their nation, it was rarely taken seriously, not even by the people who joined the nation.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-11-06 03:16:51

Ah, alright. I know literally nothing about the series, so while I knew it was in a video game, I didn't know it was a Minecraft thing.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-06 04:12:47

Yeah, it's mainly a Minecraft RP these days.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
iamconstantine Since: Aug, 2014
2021-11-06 06:52:39

It's really hard for non-fans to make any calls here on what's accurate and what isn't. I'd edit the discussion post to invite others to chime in, not just Sweet. Provide context on which entries need to be discussed.

Also, it's important to note that you can't really request a suspension on another Troper. That's considered "mini-modding" and the mods don't really like it. You can bring their editing issues up here on ATT so the mods are aware, but whether or not Sweet gets suspended is up to them.

Also also:

I've also had the idea of making a second Alternative Character Interpretation page dedicated to c!Dream apologists' skewed perspective of the plotline

I don't think that's a good idea. ACI's are not supposed to talk about "skewed" perspectives. That's an inherently biased word and sounds like it's just going to be roundabout DILP—not to mention that that also sounds like editing with an agenda. I also think you mean "entry," not "page." Or at least I hope you do because we don't need an entire page talking about opinions on one plotline in a work

Edited by iamconstantine
Siempie Since: Aug, 2016
2021-11-06 07:55:14

Hi, I'm the person who initially created the Dream SMP page, and one of the two editors Aqua mentioned in their original post. I was there for the edit war (though I didn't participate) and I've been a fan of Dream SMP for over a year now.

The thing about Dream is that he's very obviously and self-consciously a villain. Like, his plan is to take over the world, he describes himself as evil multiple times, and his methods include blackmail, terrorism, murder and child abuse (that last one specifically is portrayed in a HORRIFICALLY realistic way, if you want to know details, check the Exile Arc folders on the Nightmare Fuel and Tearjerker pages, it's ROUGH). While Wilbur also takes a villainous role, he's more of an Anti-Hero or Fallen Hero, his actions are primarily self-destructive, and stem from severe trauma and mental illness. Specifically, Wilbur believed himself to be the villain of his own story, and he decided to destroy his own country in an If I Can't Have You… fit of anger and self-loathing.

The comparison Sweet makes also isn't really valid at all. They say that some believe Wilbur manipulated Dream, while others say Dream manipulated Wilbur... But the conversation they're talking about doesn't really contain manipulation from either side. Wilbur isn't twisting facts, he's saying what he genuinely believes to be true, and Dream is simply going along with it.

I don't think they should be banned or barred from editing or whatever, their earlier edits are largely fine, and there's a disclaimer at the top of the page to keep hotly debated fandom discussion away from it. I also agree with mightymewtron in that the DILP example should've been more neutrally worded. Overall though, the example Sweet gave is pretty bad, and they generally seem to be editing from the perspective that L'Manburg (the protagonists of season 1) are actually evil and that Dream (the Overarching Villain of seasons 1 and 2) is actually the good guy.

AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-07 08:37:52

I just briefly thought of the idea of moving all apologist discourse related material—including entries for both Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater to its own page for Base-Breaking Character, as a truce of sorts. I'm not 100% sure whether this is the best idea we have to solve this (possibly because of my personal viewpoints on the plotline), but it's definitely something that can be used as a compromise.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
mightymewtron Since: Oct, 2012
2021-11-07 08:58:40

Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater should be their own entries, and Base-Breaking Character should describe the fandom divide. You shouldn't split off a page centered around one particular discourse.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-07 09:48:37

Ah, thanks. I was just thinking because the tropes kind of overlap in this fandom.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-11-07 11:46:00

I think making any sort of page on "apologist discourse material" is asking for trouble, starting with the fact that I'm not even sure how such a page would be formatted and named, and ending with the fact that if you segregate a portion of the opinions like that it comes off as giving those ones special attention in particular, regardless of reasoning. Just let it be, let their discourse exist, whether or not they're "right" is irrelevant on a YMMV page.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AquaEclipse Since: Jul, 2018
2021-11-08 06:39:06

Thanks. Also, Sweet finally got back to me in the YMMV discussion page and we're trying to talk this out at last. That's good news.

they/she/xyr; editor of Minecraft SMPs
SweetHABIT Since: Jul, 2016
2021-11-08 11:36:03

I just recently saw this because a friend shared it with me and just wanted to add a few things to explain my case as it were?

I definitely am a fan on the more c!Dream sympathetic side of things, and when making edits I generally try and keep that in mind and compensate for it so as to not swing portrayals on the T Vtropes page to be too far c!Dream sympathetic and thus intolerable to those who don't agree with it. I am aware that some of my early additions to the tropes page (specifically the one made on the Main Dream SMP tropes page) were not worded as clearly as they could be, or were not placed under the correct tropes/pages. For that I do apologize, and I've tried to be much more careful since. I've been a long-time lurker on TV Tropes, but I never got into the editing side of things until the Dream SMP page so I definitely don't know everything and have made mistakes on account of that.

That being said, I do generally try and maintain a fairly un-biased or neutral attitude towards the tropes pages, and it's that which has gotten me into editting the pages. I and several others have frequently become more aware of bias or mis-information on the Tropes page, specifically around c!Dream. He's a fairly complicated character and interpretations on him are very very split within the fanbase, and neither are really completely correct. Most of my edits have been to try and create a more neutral-tone over the TV Tropes pages, because there is a lot of content here that would paint his character as a purely flat- pure-evil villain despite evidence to the contrary throughout the SMP. Personally I think either interpretation of his character is valid, because obviously people are going to have different views on his motivations/actions. So when I make edits my primary goal is to include factual information or to make certain language more neutral sounding. Obviously I do not always succeed in that goal, because it's a hard balance to strike and I know that I have my own biases. This thread? in particular has helped me note certain edits that I've made that apparently came off as too unsympathetic towards certain groups, and I'll strive to pay more attention to the language I use moving forward.

I think the important thing, and what makes the DSMP so complicated to make a tropes page for, is that no side of the SMP are the 'good guys' or completely in the right. In any given conflict (except for a select few such as Exile), who is the 'good guy' is going to come down to personal opinion, and trying to provide a neutral-stance is going to be very difficult and is often why the edits I made are probably worded poorly in a few cases. At the end of the day, I do have the best interests for the tropes page at heart though. I do not want to edit the page to be intolerable to people who are not sympathetic to c!Dream, just as I want to fix it currently to not be intolerable to people who do like or are sympathetic to his character. I want to try and present a neutral and factual account of what occurs in the media.

I don't believe anything I did warrants a suspension from editing, simply more communication and assistance and willingness on all parts to try and present something more neutral for both sides of a fandom that are very much opposed. I hope that this post explains that.

SweetHABIT Since: Jul, 2016
2021-11-09 05:46:50

Also, just as an added note, nothing I changed or removed from the tropes page wasn't backed up with canon proof/evidence, that if need be I can explain the reasoning behind each of them. At worst I see a few cases of wording that was mis-interpreted and would need to be clarified (Animal Lover for example is one of these) to prevent others from doing so again. I am always down to discuss any changes I make on the edits if someone believes the wording is off or it belongs in another page instead, as long as they do so in good faith.

I can tell that Aqua and I have very different interpretations of the SMP's history, which is all fine, but there is clear bias on her part as well specifically against c!Dream and for L'Manberg that she is presenting as fact when there is evidence to oppose it. But to refute it here would likely be a recreation of the feud happening on pretty much all of Twitter and Tumblr regularly. Which is to say that, the fandom is heavily split on the matters of the SMP. Any interpretation painting one side as purely-good or purely-evil is incorrect, because the entire server is morally grey. And that is what I am trying to portray typically on the T Vtropes page.

Spidey Since: Sep, 2020
2021-11-09 07:13:45

^^I've actually in this thread heard that Dream is supposed the villain, though that's all I know.

"Unite GUN/BAZOOKA/LAUNCHER/TANK!"
SweetHABIT Since: Jul, 2016
2021-11-09 07:21:03

He's definitely a villain/bad guy, he's just- not a bad guy for no reason or is given more credit than he's due. But nobody on the SMP is really a good person, they're just varying levels of bad.

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