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Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-08-24 10:49:17

A couple of things.

One, those separate summonings were the hip new thing in the card game, and they had to advertise those. I fail to see how those were "mistakes" that they had to correct; they were the gimmick of those seasons.

Two, you and Krspace T are edit warring over the example, so we have that additional issue to solve.

Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-08-24 11:11:01

First: I never said those summoning methods were “mistakes” that had to be corrected. I was referring to how they were overused.

Second: That’s why I’m here trying to get a second opinion.

“This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-08-24 11:34:16

Is this just your opinion, or is it widespread? That matters on YMMV, especially with a trope like this.

As for Krspace T, it's not their first time having an edit war.

Edited by WarJay77 Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-08-24 11:57:46

^^But that's what AST is: changes made to the medium to correct something. Are the summonings that the previous seasons did "mistakes", or is it just because they were newly introduced and wanted to highlight them?

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-08-24 11:59:57

I don't think "mistake" is the right word to use there because it implies that they're fixing things that objectively went wrong, like a Special Effects Failure; this is more like they're fixing things viewers dislike.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-08-24 12:04:32

It’s not just my opinion, though as I mentioned it’s not as vocal as most. If it counts for anything, another troper added additional information to that example before Krspace T removed it.

Edited by Jackpot21 “This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-08-24 13:37:06

It doesn't matter. You added the original example, Krspace T removed it, you added it back (thus starting the Edit War), and they re-removed it (so they're in the Edit War as well).

I don't think it counts as an example, but regardless of that, you can't keep readding stuff when someone deletes it.

MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-08-24 14:40:02

Also, the way you're using bullet points both for the example and for your question to us is very confusing, formatting-wise.

Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-08-24 14:57:15

Arctimon: It does kinda matter since that shows this isn’t my personal opinion.

I’m well aware we were in an Edit War. That’s precisely why I came HERE. To get a second opinion. Constantly harping on about it doesn’t do any good in resolving this, nor is this the place to do it.

Michael Katsuro: Sorry. This is my second time posting here and the bullet points were to help space it out.

Edited by Jackpot21 “This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
TantaMonty Since: Aug, 2017
2021-08-24 15:19:32

I've spent the last 10 minutes or so in Reddit and Pojo, searching for any threads in which fans complained about the anime's lack of Tribute Summons and found absolutely nothing. If this is really an audience reaction, it's probably restricted to a very, very small portion of the fandom.

But if I'm allowed my opinion as a fan, I have to say this is not a valid example. Tribute Summoning is a clunky gameplay mechanic that is pretty much completely ignored by modern players, and its absence in the anime is a logical consequence of its unpopularity in real life. I also have issue with the statement that it allows "for more variety in strategies", since using cards in the Extra Deck was never a strategy in and of itself. It also ignores the fact that, even in the original anime, duels usually boiled down to "who can summon Black Magician/Blue-Eyes/Osiris" first.

Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-08-24 16:46:34

I was talking about how the summoning methods were overused, like with Xyz Summoning in Zexal, not about the lack of Tribute Summoning.

“This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
Karxrida Since: May, 2012
2021-08-24 19:51:09

Sevens uses the much more simplistic Rush Duel format, and can argued to be a regression if anything when it comes to strategy variety due to being a soft reset with a lower power ceiling than the main game. Plus Tribute Summoning is generally considered a clunky mechanic that hasn't seen much use over the game's history, especially post Duel Monsters era. There are iconic Tribute Summon decks (Monarchs come to mind), but their popularity is in spite of the mechanic's issues and they don't even seem to appear in Sevens.

I'd say the example is misuse.

Edited by Karxrida
Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-09-01 09:09:19

Once again, I was referring to how the summoning methods were overused, not specifically to the lack of Tribute Summoning.

The point I’m trying to make here is that from Zexal on there’s very little variety with how the characters duel as they use similar strategies focused around bringing out a monster from the extra deck. But in SEVENS, the duels are somewhat more flexible, with the characters making the most out of every card they use rather than focusing on a single monster.

“This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
KrspaceT Since: Apr, 2011
2021-09-01 09:47:26

Wait I was being name linked?

....Okay one,

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=YMMV.YuGiOhSevens

When this starts to flare up I have been trying to talk via the discussion page as opposed to edit out edit in to a dozen degrees, especially if I do say my own issues with it in the edit and it doesn't really get properly explained or countered.

So now that I have covered that what usually happens with Jackpot and me on Sevens comes up.....

I'll notice a common trend in reactions to Sevens somewhere, for example Youtube comments. I'll use that as as source. Especially when it is neative towards sevens.

He'd remove it because it 'isn't a valid source of community feedback', then he'll add stuff like that that is entirely his own opinion and has no one else talking about it.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-09-01 09:50:48

^ What do you mean "only one"? From what I see, you reverted it two times.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
TantaMonty Since: Aug, 2017
2021-09-01 10:16:54

I maintain that it's not a valid example, but let's try to simplify it to the main points of contention:

1) "Summoning from the Extra Deck is an overused strategy". Setting aside the fact that each character's respective Extra Deck is varied on its own and accommodated substantially different strategies, I have yet to see anyone raise this complaint about the anime. I found nothing on Pojo, Reddit or any other forum I visited; which is understandable, since the Extra Deck is such a major part of the card game. As such, if there is a portion of the fanbase who dislikes said summoning methods, its size is pretty much negligible. This alone invalidates the example.

2) Author's Saving Throw is when writers "look at elements that fans complained about, and try to address these in an attempt at appeasing their anger". The Rush Duels were not created with this purpose in mind. They are a simplified version of the card game designed specifically to appeal to a younger demographic. Yet another sign of misuse.

3) "Duels in SEVENS are more flexible". I disagree. After reading a few duel scripts in the Yu-Gi-Oh wiki, it's pretty clear that Yuga's deck follows a fairly basic strategy of getting Sevens Road Magician on the field so he can power him up with other cards. Literally the only difference between this and any of the previous protagonists' strategies is that Sevens Road is a Main Deck monster.

Edited by TantaMonty
KrspaceT Since: Apr, 2011
2021-09-01 10:29:38

Thought edit wars got problematic at five edits when a full two rounds of back and forth happens. So its at three...

Ill keep that in mind for the future.

Also 'only one?' Not sure where I claimed that.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-09-01 11:00:42

Sorry, that one was my misreading

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-09-03 14:59:59

Krspace T: “He'd remove it because it 'isn't a valid source of community feedback', then he'll add stuff like that that is entirely his own opinion and has no one else talking about it”.

So I remove your examples, then you accuse me of adding examples based off of my opinions? You don’t have any room to talk when some of your recent examples for SEVENS are rather opinionated rather than factual.

Take how you when you tried to add Yuga to Base Breaking Character simply because you thought of him as an, and I quote, “an unmotivated, uninteresting, overhyped twerp whose constant losses, often in the same manner, make him more aggravating to follow than even Yuma and whose deck is considered jumbled and features few interesting cards.” Not only has Yuga not done anything in series to warrant this trope, but complaining about his losses, that you personally find him and his deck uninteresting and calling him an overhyped twerp sounds more like a rant than a fact.

Using You Tube comments as a source doesn’t cut it. Your whole justification for adding Tough Act to Follow was because you found a bunch of comments talking about how the Maximum arc was better than the following two arcs or how the Goha Sixth arc was too similar to it with no valid reason as to why. You say the Maximum arc is the same as the Goha Sixth arc when the only similarity they have is how the main antagonist for both arcs defeat Yuga with a Maximum monster, only to lose to his own Maximum in rematch. To say that there aren’t as many interesting duels or opponents within the next two arcs isn’t accurate, considering the duels we got involving Tiger, Asana, the Nanahoshi twins, Menzaburo’s teammates, and even Kaizo and Sebastian, as well as the final duels near the end of the last arc, along with both Romin and Asana defeating Yuga and the twist involving the Goha president. And the reasoning you have for after I explained how this trope doesn’t apply is that you considered the thirteen episode arcs throughout the first season as separate seasons, even though they’re not listed as such on the wiki or episode listings.

You not personally hearing any complaints about the summoning methods isn't enough of a reason to delete that example and it’s kinda hypocritical considering how most of you’re reasoning for adding Yuga to Base-Breaking Character is rarely talked about.

Edited by Jackpot21 “This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-09-03 15:13:46

So I remove your examples, then you accuse me of adding examples based off of my opinions? You don’t have any room to talk when some of your recent examples for SEVENS are rather opinionated rather than factual.

That does not follow logically. If it's wrong to add examples based on your own opinion, then it doesn't stop being wrong regardless of what the person accusing you might have done himself.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro
Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-09-03 16:10:32

What I meant is that he’s accusing me of adding examples based on my opinions because of how I’ve either removed or rewritten his recent examples.

“This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
Oshawott337 Since: Jul, 2020
2021-09-03 20:47:30

Okay, so I haven't watched much of Sevens myself, but I've looked around and seen quite a few different opinions so I figured I'd give some input. I will say that while I agree that YT comments alone shouldn't count as the end all be all, as it's just one community, I'm not sure if I agree with the entry. While I've seen my fair share of complaints about the Extra Deck, it usually tends to revolve around dislike for the later summoning methods and constant spam, not something against the Extra Deck in general and certainly not out of a preference for tribute summoning.

And generally, I find that people would just prefer the show branch out with summoning methods rather than only focusing on the new ones. For instance, a lot of people responded positively to Arc-V focusing on multiple summoning methods rather than only on Pendulum as well as when season 2 of VRAINS branched out beyond just Link summoning, compared to 5Ds and Zexal largely only focusing on whatever method was new at the time. But that's just what I've seen. The Rush Duel format in general seems to be controversial, at the very least, though it has its fans.

Edited by Oshawott337 "Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."
KrspaceT Since: Apr, 2011
2021-09-04 03:49:37

"What I meant is that he’s accusing me of adding examples based on my opinions because of how I’ve either removed or rewritten his recent examples."

You've said multiple times that they are what you feel, so I'd hardly call it an accusation. We've PM'd about it, we've talked in discussion parts, and it always is how it goes. How you feel, Jackbot, versus how the fandom feels. Yeah, where I hear feedback isn't an infalliable resource (Youtube reactions to say, how the Asana arc was kind of a repeat of the Nail arc but worse, though with a good main antagonist and giving Gakuto spotlight), but at least I can even offer a backup to my opinions. It's been show by multiple people here that your thoughts on how 'everyone's happy not to have extra deck monsters' and the like are only on you and not the wider fandom.

And let's not pretend you don't remove a lot of my ideas. Said 'Sevens Discussion' page has multiple discussion bits on other incidents like this one: it is just those ones happen to be when I am trying to have something like 'Tough Act to Follow' or 'Broken Base' added or kept respectively and you want it gone.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=YMMV.YuGiOhSevens

...This just happens to be a time that things are on the other shoe. Those times when it was getting into a feud I moved it to Discussions and with it at an impasse I left it at that because the argument was not going to end.

MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-09-04 03:52:26

This just happens to be a time that things are on the other shoe

You mean that the shoe is on the other foot, mate. :)

Edited by MichaelKatsuro
Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-09-14 18:27:02

Oshawott 337: Sorry for the late reply. Hadn’t had much free time as of late.

Anyway, contrary to popular belief, this entry isn’t referring to the Extra Deck in general or the lack of Tribute Summoning, but of how the summoning methods were overused, including how multiple characters would use similar strategies to bring them out, either by using a monster that’s treated as two materials (Xyz or Link), summoning a monster by using at least two others that are the same type (Fusion) or adjusting a monster’s level to meet the requirements for another monster (Synchro or Xyz). I wasn’t trying to imply that SEVENS would be better off without the Extra Deck or any preference for Tribute Summoning, but what I’m trying to say is that over the last few series, the characters would often spam the featured summoning methods, overshadowing most of the other cards in their decks compared to SEVENS. Even with Maximum and Fusion, they’re limited to certain characters, making the times one of those methods are used to leave more of an impact rather compared to when they're used by nearly every character. I probably should have reworded my entry to get that across, but you know what they say about hindsight being 20/20…

I don’t disagree, but I think in Arc-V’s case so many fans were hyped about all the summoning methods at the time being used because of how Fusion and later Synchro were put to the curb for the latest method, not helped by all but two duels in Zexal featuring an Xyz Monster and with VRAINS first season featured only Link Monsters, even giving Ritual Monsters their due. I’m even hoping we’ll see one of the other summoning methods make a return like Fusion did. However, since so many character’s decks in SEVENS don’t revolve around a particular summoning method, it leaves room for more variety in strategy rather than “summon this Extra Deck monster and try to keep it on the field for the rest of the duel”, if that makes sense.

And for the record, I never said that Rush Duels had any part in my reasoning. I only brought that up as a comparison and only mentioned Tribute Monsters not because of any lack of demand for them, but because they’d logically be the ace monsters most characters would use in SEVENS without additional summoning methods.

Edited by Jackpot21 “This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
2021-09-14 18:30:15

The big question that still leaves room to be desired though, is, "do fans think like this"? So far, there's no evidence that says it's a popular opinion.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Jackpot21 Since: May, 2016
2021-09-14 19:00:22

I did say it wasn’t that vocal of an opinion, but I have come across complaints about it and apparently so has Oshawott 337, and if you look on the YYMV section for Zexal under Scrappy Mechanic, as well as Drinking Game, you'll find one of the issues fans had with Xyz Summoning (using one monster to count as two materials) there.

Edited by Jackpot21 “This is your story. You decide where it starts and how it ends”.
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