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NitroIndigo Since: Jun, 2021
2021-07-16 02:38:56

There really were dungeons cut for time in The Wind Waker, according to Word of God, that were later repurposed in Twilight Princess.

Octoya Since: Jul, 2014
2021-07-16 03:19:06

The second example sounds more like someone trying to defend the movie than than a common knowledge entry, and misrepresents the criticism against the plot point. (Which is that the move contradicts how hyperspace is established to work in the first place, in addition to the fact that it implies hyperspace would be insanely dangerous to use.) Like in the case of the first point, these are ideas that people who have actually watched the work come away with and tend to argue over endlessly, not misconceptions that are easily explained by the story.

Hell even I take issue with the defense they wrote to the criticism (being able to turn ships into bullets would be hugely effective even if things weren't perfectly lined up for it to be a Finishing Move—just get a handful of smaller, droid-piloted ships.)

Edited by Octoya
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
2021-07-16 08:46:53

I think a similar example about the stormtroopers was previously on the page, but removed.

matruz (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-07-16 09:04:20

^^Hyperspace has been already established as very dangerous to use since A New Hope (Han's line about how hyperspace isn't like "dusting crops" and how you could end up inside a star or a supernova). Also super-luminal weapons and projectiles are a thing since Legends, heck even it's both said and shown that Starkiller Base fires at FTL.

Edited by matruz
Octoya Since: Jul, 2014
2021-07-16 09:40:36

Sorry, I think this move overall is still ignoring continuity but that isn't the point, so I shouldn't have dedicated so much of my reply to it. The point is, both star wars examples look like misuse.

The Holdo Maneuver one doesn't correct a misassumption, it just defends a plot decision using Fan Wank (whether or not the defense is valid)

The stormtrooper one is a subjective statement of "they don't miss MOST of the time" which clearly not all people who have seen the films agree with. I have also seen debate about the "letting them escape" line on here and how valid it is or not, so that's something to consider too.

EDIT: With further consideration, the stormtrooper one might be alright if the entry were rewritten to focus on the scene in A New Hope specifically, if people use it as the prime example of Stormtrooper marksmanship when that is one instance it is justified in-universe?

Edited by Octoya
MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
2021-07-16 09:51:09

I don't really see how "They don't miss most of the time" is a subjective statement. Whether a shot hits or not is an objective factor.

Octoya Since: Jul, 2014
2021-07-16 09:54:40

I guess you're right it's not subjective, but it does require someone go through and count every instance of a shot hitting vs. not. Since people don't usually do that, they go with their impressions, which are more malleable. There's also what counts as an easy shot or not, since the misconception is specifically that stormtroopers miss when they should easily be able to hit the target with their "precise" marksmanship training. Bad word on my part, though, yeah.

EDIT: If it means anything, one article puts them at a 4.16% accuracy rate overall, but in A New Hope, accounting for the "intentionally missing" explanation, the accuracy rate is well over half. Hence why I'm wondering if it would be better if the trope was worded more clearly.

Edited by Octoya
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
2021-07-16 12:13:02

For what it’s worth, the edit reason for the removal of the similar entry was “ They miss every shot while C 3 P 0 and R2 slowly cross a hallway. And the didn’t let the rebels go. Tarkin asked vader “are you sure the homing beacon is aboard” meaning it was a backup plan.”

matruz (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
2021-07-16 14:13:19

^^^^From what I remember from the Legends lore (I'm not very familiar with the post-Disney-acquisition stuff), the reasons super-luminal weapons are not widespread are:

  • They consume a lot of energy and fuel which makes them impractical.
  • Because of the fictional physics of the Star Wars universe, deliberately hitting a ship-sized object (that's also possibly moving) is exceedingly difficult, which is why they're used mostly against planet-sized targets.
  • Hyperspace travel itself requires a lot of calculations to avoid a collission with a planet, moon, or star; An FTL weapon removes all that, which means missing shots will eventually hit something they don't intend.

MyFinalEdits (Spin-off Series)
2021-07-16 14:48:09

Regarding the Zelda example, while it is known that two dungeons were cut from the final version (and later redesigned for later games), it was never stated that one of them was Jabun or Greatfish Isle. That the developers programmed a lengthy sequence of cutscenes and gameplay to implement that part of the game (destruction of Greatfish Isle, stormy rain for the entire overworld, the conversation between the pirates inside the Bomb Shop, the trial inside Tetra's ship, the part where you have to open the entrance to the cave behind Outset Island, and finally the plot-critical conversation with Jabun) indicates too much work and planning for what's supposedly believed to be an improvisation to make up for a dungeon's removal. So instead, the two cut dungeons came from the latter half of the game, which is why they implemented the controversial Triforce hunt. In fact, when Aonuma and Miyamoto explained the struggles of developing the game, they cited explicitly that hunt as a sped-up workaround to make up for the removal of said dungeons. Yet, people keep thinking that there was a "cut water dungeon" for Nayru's Pearl, even though that part of the game was unrelated to the actual cut content.

So, with that in mind, the Zelda example fits.

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-07-16 15:02:45

@NitroIndigo: The cut dungeons in Wind Waker being later in the game than fans assumed is true, but I doubt it's Common Knowledge if it's not something that would be obvious to those who played the game. I missed the translation part which would make it adequate an example.

Stormtroopers Aim: If you need a detailed analysis to determine if their aim really is bad or not, I doubt it's obviously incorrect enough to count, especially since most audiences have seen it so should have known it incorrect if it was obvious. Never Live It Down seem a better fit.

Hyperspace Ramming it sound like we agree it should be cut as the explanations rely on Fan Wank and/or questionably canon out of work material as opposed to being stared/obvious in the work. Cut?

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-07-17 09:42:03

Update: will cut the hyperspace ramming as it relays on Fan Wank and out of work material as opposed to something clearly shown/stated in the work.

Octoya Since: Jul, 2014
2021-07-17 10:04:50

Sounds like the stormtrooper one can be removed too by the sound of it as it isn't actually a misconception

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
2021-07-17 10:10:07

The Stormtrooper thing is pure Fan Wank. Incredibly common Fan Wank that could theoretically work in... parts of ANH (but not others) but Fan Wank nonetheless.

Like, they miss C 3 PO when he's getting into the escape pod. He's not moving. That's well before any sort of plan could possibly be in place.

Also they die. A lot. When the movies were made Stormtroopers haven't been established as fanatically supportive of the Empire to the point of throwing their lives away for a rouse.

... personally the fanwank that I'd go with instead is that Obi-Wan is just more used to Clone Troopers than Stormtroopers so yes, he does associate them with military precision. He's been hiding out in a cave for decades actively avoiding Stormtroopers. It makes sense for him to be behind the times. But that's neither here nor there.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
miraculous (Apprentice)
2021-07-17 14:59:53

I'd just cut these.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-07-17 21:49:58

I cut them.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
2021-07-26 11:08:32

What about the Legend of Zelda entry?

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
2021-07-26 11:34:36

I'd say it's valid as it explain why the evidence for such is in the work but even those who play through it might not notice/think otherwise.

At least valid as it's used now. There might be a cleanup later.

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