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I don't know about I, Lucifer, but Preacher absolutely does not support Christianity. Like, wow, does it not.
I'm not sure if the index should only include explicitly pro-Christian works. It probably should, because if not, that sets the precedent for indexes being used to shoehorn works that only complain about the subject. Either way though, I don't think just including basic Christian imagery should be enough to be called "Christian Fiction". Supernatural also uses Christian imagery and Daredevil is Catholic, wouldn't call either a Christian show.
Edited by PrimisI always assumed Christian fiction refered to works created by christians for christians. All the christian flicks (even God's Not Dead), to literature like the Pilgrim's journey to help's one faith in the belief.
Edited by Tomodachi To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.Think you mean The Pilgrim's Progress (or possibly The Pilgrim's Regress), but yeah.
Edited by MichaelKatsuroPutting Preacher under Christian Fiction is absurd bordering on offensive.
"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."I think the description on that index isn't very clear about what it's supposed to be indexing. Are we talking about works that use christian imagery and themes? Or are we talking about media that is produced by christian organizations, produced for a conservative and religious audience (like the Left Behind books, or God's Not Dead film)?
I have to say, works using christian imagery and themes would comprise much of western art (not to mention various anime/manga that tend to borrow images for an exotic look).
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose meI don't think it necessarily needs to be "conservative" media, although undeniably many of them are. It just needs to be made by Christians, and usually for Christians, using Christian themes. Think VeggieTales.
Edited by WackyPancake "I like girls, but now, it's about justice."Wait, someone thought Preacher was Christian? Talk about not reading the comic before troping it.
Edited by themayorofsimpleton Works That Require Cleanup Of Complaining | Troper WallThis might require a more thorough cleanup, this is a list where the films section has both God's Not Dead and The Devil's Advocate.
Also not sure if any Anime/Manga would be considered made by christians for christians.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose meWell, the grand total of four anime listed in there do, in fact, seem to fit the bill. I don't know if they were made by Christians, but probably for Christians.
"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."^ Does the work actually present/promote a Christian view, though? Reading the work's trope page, it seems to be closer to the type of "work that uses Christian imageries, characters and/or themes but isn't really Christian".
For reference, the description of Christian Fiction defines the genre as "works meant to teach, display or debate with Christian teachings, depictions of Biblical tales and church history, and stories about Christian faith."
The "debate with" part is a bit iffy, since this can be used to shoehorn works with anti-Christian messages, but otherwise it seems clear enough.
Edited by AdeptI think "Christian Fiction" is more a marketing category than anything. There is an industry, in both publish and film, that produces it and the term generally refers to products of that industry. It's for this reason that I don't consider The Chronicles of Narnia Christian Fiction, because the books came out decades before that would have been a term that anyone used. It's the same reason I don't think Catcher in the Rye can be Young Adult Fiction.
Edited by TheMountainKing^ This touches on another topic. Here in the US, "Christian" books/films/music/etc has a very specific meaning. It's media that's made by a select number of studios/labels/publishing houses that are endorsed by various religious denominations. The works are meant to be "acceptable" alternatives to the godless secular media that will surely corrupt them. Under this definition, Left Behind is christian, while The Chronicles of Narnia is not, despite both being written by devout christians with the intention of sharing their beliefs.
I don't think that's what the index is supposed to be, but again the murky definition isn't helping.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me^ When I hear Christian Fiction, I think of the industry, not just any work about Christianity made by a Christian. God's Not Dead and Silence are both films by Christians about Christianity, but the first is a product of the Christian film industry, while the second was made by a mainstream studio. GND was also sold as a Christian film, while Silence was sold to a mainstream audience on the pedigree of its director, not on its religious message. So I would call GND a Christian Film, and Silence a mainstream film about Christianity.
Edited by TheMountainKingI think a good rule of thumb is that we could include any work that heavily features Christianity or Christian themes, as long as it doesn't only to attack or strawman it.
"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."^ I disagree, for the reasons stated above. Take Good Omens. It heavily features Christainity, and, while it is a comedic take on the Christian apocalypses, I definitely wouldn't describe it as an attack on the religion itself. But it was written by two atheists, and was marketed to their existing fanbases and as a comedy, not a religious book. Should it count?
Edited by TheMountainKing^ But "Christian Fiction (TM)" is strictly an American phenomenon, I think even Canadians would be confused by an index called Christian Fiction that somehow leaves out works like The Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost.
I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose meI don't think this wiki should limit the term "Christian fiction" to usually-crappy American Protestant The Moral Substitute works. That's a very narrow and not particularly flattering definition
"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."I think my main issue is, if we're not using the more narrow definition, what does "for Christians" mean?
When Milton wrote Paradise Lost, he didn't think "this is for Christians", because he had written it in English and all Englishmen were assumed to be Christian by default. For a modern example, the marketing for Silence focused almost entirely on the fact that it was directed by Martin Scorsese, and made no attempt to sell it on the basis of religious content (the film's actual attitude towards both the church and God is also ambiguous and fraught, so selling it as an affirmation of Christian faith wouldn't work). Is the film "for Christians"?
^ Like I say, we should just go with the definition given by the page itself rather than the overly narrow "Christian Fiction (TM)" label.
Silence falls under the last category. Even if it doesn't promote/affirm Christianity, it does tell the story about Christian faith in the face of severe persecution.
Paradise Lost is a Narrative Poem retelling the biblical story of the fall of man and is wrought with very prominent Christian theological teachings. And if Milton "had written it in English and all Englishmen were assumed to be Christian by default", then you can say that he "wrote it for Christians" since he would be writing under the assumption that his work would be read by a predominantly Christian audience rather than non-believers.
I'd actually leave out Narnia from the category, since it avoids actually mentioning God or use specifically Christian jargons; it doesn't feature explicitly Christian doctrines (even if you can draw parallels from it), and none of the characters identifies as Christians even though some of them come from a world where Christianity does exist.
Edited by Adept^^ Then why not allow Preacher? It's undeniably a story about Christian faith and it uses figures from Christianity, even if it's conclusions about Christianity are negative, which doesn't matter because it doesn't need to affirm/promote Christianity. It fits with the current definition on the page. If you want to change that, that's fine, but going by what the page says, Preacher fits.
Edited by TheMountainKing^^ In an interview, Lewis said that he didn't intend to write a Christian allegory when writing Narnia—he just thought up of fantasy imageries and those elements just worked itself into the story as it goes. And we do have a trope for Jesus stand-ins in fiction, and even if Aslan is the more blatant example of the that, I don't know if his character, by himself, is enough to make Narnia a Christian lit.
But then again, it's been a while since I read the Narnia books (I'm more familiar with Lewis's non-fiction writings) so I don't remember how overt the Christian themes in them are.
Edited by Adept^^ "Then why not allow Preacher? It's undeniably a story about Christian faith and it uses figures from Christianity, even if it's conclusions about Christianity are negative, which doesn't matter because it doesn't need to affirm/promote Christianity."
This is a fair question. And as Pippi Longstocking put it, "a good question deserves a good answer." And I think the main question there, when shush comes to pove, is that the work also needs to be in accordance with Christianity. As in, it's not supposed to be a protest against the faith.
I just want to jump in to say thank you all for being so civil about this. I was worried when I saw 30 replies, but you've all been very rational and level-headed, and I appreciate that.
To be honest, now I'm even more confused about what our definition of Christian Fiction should be. But I do think we should add the industry definition of it to the description, as just another way of defining it.
Very good kitty^^ You were mistaken, Cryptic, sure, but it's also a mistake to assume that "Christian fiction" only refers to the specific, often North American kind of fiction that's written by Karen Kingsbury and by the team of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.
(For those of you who haven't read such fiction: It's basically a wish fulfillment fantasy for the modern kind of Christian. It usually includes elements like Jesus and God turning out to be real and all the non-believers going "Oh, why didn't we accept that the Christians were correct all along! Their faith is so much better than ours!"; or a family having awful problems but it ends up well and they think Well, it was clearly just a part of God's plan, which we didn't understand at the time.)
Edited by MichaelKatsuro^^ I agree that the industry definition should be added to the description.
Also, it’s been awhile since I’ve read anything about the world of Christian publishing, but I believe that some works get marketed as such even w/o being quite as obviously religious as ^ because they’re going through a Christian publishing house.
There’s also a lot of very niche genres that come out of Christian publishing (e.g. Amish romances). Dunno if that’s worth mentioning or not though.
Old Enough to Be Your Absurdly Youthful MotherAt this point, it is clear that a Trope Talk thread is needed to clarify the situation. Once a thread has been linked here, I'll lock the query.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

What constitutes Christian Fiction? There are some works on there, like Preacher and I, Lucifer, that use Biblical characters or concepts, but from what I can tell, don't actually support Christian messages or beliefs. Maybe we could organize the index based on whether or not the works listed follow Christian beliefs?
Edited by DrNoPuma